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Thread: Shop Build...should be a fun journey...

  1. #61
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    Mar 2003
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    At the present time, it appears that the end-choice will be a wood post frame structure, 24x36x10, steel clad. The extra 4 foot bay actually works out nicely to provide some structural support for a separate sound-reduced space for DC and compressed air as well as some storage needs. I'll not go into more detail than that for now as this is still something in flux, both from a zoning/permit perspective and a final contractor decision. The local power company is also being a pain at responsiveness as I need to work multiple scenarios to find the best solution, both functionally and cost-wise.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  2. #62
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    Feb 2021
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    Portland, OR
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    Jealous! Super excited for you Jim. What's the first new machine purchase once this is up and running?

  3. #63
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    Jan 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    At the present time, it appears that the end-choice will be a wood post frame structure, 24x36x10, steel clad. The extra 4 foot bay actually works out nicely to provide some structural support for a separate sound-reduced space for DC and compressed air as well as some storage needs. I'll not go into more detail than that for now as this is still something in flux, both from a zoning/permit perspective and a final contractor decision. The local power company is also being a pain at responsiveness as I need to work multiple scenarios to find the best solution, both functionally and cost-wise.
    yep. something about a pole barn, it just ends up being the "best" choice. I was dead set on a metal frame building at first, but it was just not going to work out with the extra concrete work for the foundation and other complicating factors. my materials should be delivered next week, and they sit till the moment we get our permit!

  4. #64
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    You have gotten, and will likely still get many good intended suggestions. I'm sure many of them you have included or at least given consideration. When I did my shop I listed the "Important to Me" design criteria. This was my "True North" and when I had compromises to make I would ask myself if the decision was pointing "True North" or not. It's a way of staying focused.
    For me I wanted a Attached, Clean, and Quite shop that fit into the house design. This resulted in very significant decisions that were made early in the planning and also along the way.
    The Plane Anarchist

  5. #65
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    Mar 2018
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    It sounds nice, and I hope the plan will all come together for you soon. It sounds like there are a lot of moving pieces to keep up with in the design phase.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Hall View Post
    Jealous! Super excited for you Jim. What's the first new machine purchase once this is up and running?
    There are really only two machines that would be on the table, for the most part...a new cyclone and a new slider. Both of the old ones were sold prior to my moving things into my temporary shop in the garage; the cyclone because it would have been a pain to store and I wanted to go larger this time around with the bigger space, and the slider because again, storing it somewhere would have been costly and moving it twice "insane". This project is really focus on a new, dedicated shop space as there is no existing outbuilding like I had at the old property. The garage (temporary shop) is ok for small projects to get by at 21x21, but there's almost no space to assemble and finish anything larger nor is there space for good material movement/workflow. It's also uninsulated and unconditioned...I'm dealing with rust for the first time ever since I started woodworking in a serious way in about 1997. And then there is material storage...it's currently in a tent (literally) in the backyard.

    ---

    Leigh, I've had pretty much a year to plan in my head what I wanted to accomplish with a "shop from scratch"...space, functionality and detached.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  7. #67
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    Feb 2010
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    From all your knowledgeable posts Jim, I'm sure you're very well-versed in pole barns... but perhaps some of these tips will be helpful (or beneficial for the many others that will read here and may not be as familiar). My perspective from a prior career stop working for a large post-frame company:

    I highly recommend use of perma-columns which have the concrete base sitting in the soil. The key is to have the builder price without the perma-columns first... don't even mention them... with that quote in hand, ask for perma columns... should be a manageable upcharge per post (and anything more, he's gouging you).

    Similarly, the skirt board that goes around the entire base of the building, and is used both to pour the concrete floor to and attach the base of siding to, can be composite or wrapped for a minor upcharge.

    The 2 steps above eliminate the primary weaknesses in post-frame construction (ground rot).

    Note that post-frame can easily accept any siding and roofing that you wish. I personally chose steel because it is both economical and extremely long lasting (and can be quite stylish), but for those that want/need another look it's easily doable. The screws used to fasten can feature neoprene or epdm rubber washers... you want the rubber as they don't dry out and crack in the sun. Insist on this.

    Insulating under the slab is cheap and easy to do up front, very difficult to do later. I recommend level floor (not sloped) unless you are building a car garage that will see frequent water (snow slop, car washing).

    (Bonus tip: instead of "bookshelf girts" between the posts to hold insulation, and instead of in-framing with studs for the same reason, consider "re-girts" which are simply horizontal 2x4's affixed to inside of posts in the exact manner that the girts are affixed on the outside of the posts to hold the siding. It's fast and easy work, easily accommodates hanging of cabinets and the like, and nearly eliminates thermal bridging which enables a very good insulation factor. Sure, you lose 3" of room width, but the benefits are worth it).
    - Bob R.
    Collegeville PA (30 minutes west of Philly)

  8. #68
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    Mar 2013
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    Trenton SC, in the CSRA
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    Add a permanent blue room. Maybe the neighbors will band together to get the ordinances revised to enable a bathroom in the new shop.
    Okay, a bad joke Jim. But I'm certainly glad my "blue" room is a built in. LOL!

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Houston, Texas area
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    ...

    • Ground prep - I will likely do most of this myself with the Big Orange Power Tool, which while small, should be able to handle the task. The area for the building is nearly level and the amount of organics to be removed is surprisingly little. Coordination with the next step is essential to insure jurisdictional requirements are met
    • ...
    • HVAC - it is my intention to install a minisplit for heating/cooling as I had at the previous shop. Uber-efficient and I can go the self-install route to save money
    Hi Jim. Im so happy you are getting the new shop built. Very exciting and tiresome work.

    re the ground prep: in Texas where we live the standard is to remove a minimum of 6" of soil that has any evidence of organics in it before pouring the slab. Then a layer of special red dirt/clay is added and compacted, concrete forms placed, trenches for concrete beams cut, plumbing trenches cut and pipes installed, termite treatment applied, plastic put down, rebar mesh built (or post tension cables laid), then the slab is poured.

    I'm not certain of the purpose of the 6" soil scrape but suspect it is either to make sure there are no organics (e.g. roots) which may later compress or to help prevent termites.

    I love my Mitsubishi mini-split. Easily cools and heats 1000 sq feet, blowing ~ 30 feet across the room. Took me a while to find someone factory trained to service it, even in a large metropolitan area. In my experience the service is more expensive than a conventional HVAC system and harder to find someone qualified to do it. I have a multi-head split system in another part of the building which complicates servicing and increases expenses. Basically every cassette head introduces additional service cost. Not something I thought about before installing.

    I used open cell spray foam in the walls and 4-5" in the ceiling topped with blown in insulation. That appears to be the residential standard in this area. I think there is a limit to how thick open cell can be blown, which isn't thick enough for ceilings in Texas.

    Having 2 power runs in the slab for my combo machine and stock feeder, and having 6" ductwork for dust collection in the slab for the combo machine has been really nice. This forces you to lock in the position of the combo machine but I tediously planned workflow paths and tool locations in the shop for over a year using 3D models and virtual walkthroughs. 5 years later the combo machine is still exactly where I want it.

    I did have to place the 6" ductwork further from the outfeed side of the machine than one might think so I could do a gentle Y to split for the J/P and saw/shaper takeoffs.

    IMG_6318.jpg
    Last edited by mark mcfarlane; 03-14-2022 at 9:10 AM.
    Mark McFarlane

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    I agree with Adam that your choices worked well. I actually wouldn't mind doing a a raceway for machine wiring rather than conduit so I could end up with a similar situation. My plan is for 10' walls and that gives some flexibility around the idea.
    Not a bad idea. Maybe put air in there too if there's a way to incorporate pneumatic accessories.

  11. #71
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    Mar 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Dixon View Post
    Maybe the neighbors will band together to get the ordinances revised to enable a bathroom in the new shop.
    There's not really an ordinance that causes a problem for putting a bath in what will be the shop. What causes the issue is elevation and logistics for getting out to the sewer line as well as the additional costs for getting water to the building. It would be uber-expensive and I really don't "need" a bathroom in the shop. Had we sold the old property for what we originally asked for it, it would be still on the table. $250K down from there, it's not. If it were commercial, that would also push the bathroom idea further. But it's not. I didn't have it for 22 years at the other location, either, and that actually was because of local jurisdiction. The walk is about the same distance. . But yes, in a perfect world it would be nice!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Riefer View Post
    From all your knowledgeable posts Jim, I'm sure you're very well-versed in pole barns... but perhaps some of these tips will be helpful (or beneficial for the many others that will read here and may not be as familiar).
    Yes, I'm quite familiar with post frame construction at this point for various reasons. Cost factors will play a role relative to options like Perma-Column or even poured post supports, but my intention is to explore that with whatever post frame building I choose for the work. I have already specified laminated columns and will likely, at the least, use additional methods for longer term preservation. The grade board is already specified for wrapping for the reasons you mentioned. All girts are horizontal on the face of the posts in any design I'd consider. The floor will be level. No you-know-whatting-way would I accept a sloped floor for this building after having to live with that for over 22 years at the old shop! Legally, it's considered a "Residential Accessory Building", not a garage, so there's no requirement for a slope on the floor. The building will be sheathed in metal that matches the house in color.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Harms View Post
    Not a bad idea. Maybe put air in there too if there's a way to incorporate pneumatic accessories.
    Yes, air in a raceway is certainly a consideration. I can put more thought into certain interior things once I have full settlement and commitment on the actual building structure.

    -----

    I got an email last night from the local zoning/building officer and he indicated that the individual working on my zoning pre-approval is pretty far along. Hopefully, I'll have that soon as that's the trigger for next steps.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 03-14-2022 at 11:40 AM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #72
    I'm responding mostly so I get thread updates, but also to say congrats and I'll be watching the progress with excitement!

    Sure wish we had a "Like" button.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    If we can ever get over the hump and move the forum software, there will be a "like" button, Greg.

    ----
    'Just got a quick email from the zoning/building resource that was working on my application and she indicated she sent things over to the Borough. I'll get a call in the "recent future" from them when they realize it's there and in exchange for a nice check made out for $150, get my letter. It's "pass/fail" regardless so I'm hoping for "pass" for obvious reasons.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #74
    Jumping in here like I knew what I was talking about, so here goes. Living in S. Arizona, I hate wood, cause of termites and woodpeckers. So I said all metal including doors and roof. Since I have a Southbend metal lathe I had the area where I planned to put it was a deeper area of concrete doubled rebar. It uses 220 so I had the electrician put that outlet high enough so I could reach it, just in case things went wrong. i also had a table saw using 220 so had him put an other 220 outlet. Put another 110 right handy for an air compressor. Since he was working on new construction he was able to do all the electrical work before the insulation and siding work was done.

    One more thing , Since we do a lot work outside I made sure the area right outside was LEVEL

    Now for the inside, first building they just used drywall, a big mistake\pain in the neck to screw things to.

    Things I wish I has done differently
    Ran waterline closer to entry
    Used Particleboard instead of drywall
    Leave out windows, We sure don't need a way for sun to climb in.

    The guys who did the first job did so well , I had the same crew build a second bldg. Same concept except no windows, no 220 But using particle board for interior walls.

    You can not stop thieve attempt so I made friends with the folks who use the tennis court next door, said just call the cops if anything doesn't look right. Living at the end of an alley with good neighbors means we have more eyes watching.

    That is the story of my shop, sawdust and all

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Our conditions are a little different here, Anne, but I can appreciate your situation out there in the southwest!

    I'm just thankful to be able to finally put up a shop building that's to "my" specifications from scratch instead of having to adjust to and mold what was already available like at our old property...not that it was a bad situation in any way, shape or form over those 22 years of "shop evolution". Lessons learned are a big part of my plans. And honestly, the thing that's going to be the most difficult thing in the new space is to duplicate the amount of sound reduction I had from an acoustic tile ceiling I cobbled together at the old shop. The difference was "yuge" from a before/after standpoint...and it made it a pleasure to work in the shop for long periods of time with both the CNC and other machines running at the same time.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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