If you go the phase converter route you will have to worry about extra amperage I think, but my 5hp 220v single phase saw only needs a 30 amp circuitOriginally Posted by Kurt Wyberanec
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If you go the phase converter route you will have to worry about extra amperage I think, but my 5hp 220v single phase saw only needs a 30 amp circuit
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Hey Kurt, I own a Hammer K4. If you have any questions about that specific saw, I'm happy to help.
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Maybe, I have the ability to run 100a but at the time I only had a 60a breaker and just never changed it because I don’t have issues, i can run a single phase 3hp cyclone, 16” j/p, mm16 bandsaw, 7.5hp 3p saw, all the lights at the same time and the air compressor can kick on and I don’t have issues. A lot of this stuff pulls pretty low amperage when running and the planer jointer under load would probably pull the most amps and maybe the saw ripping 3” wet oak.
If you were to start all of it once you would probably have issues and if you were planing 16” maple, ripping 3” maple, resawing with the bandsaw 12” Maple then you might have an issue - but you won’t, your a one man shop.
Also with the PP, the reason i put it up in the attic is that it makes a slight buzzing/crackling sound kind like frying bacon. It’s not terrible and some can’t even hear it. I don’t know how loud a rotary is but it’s basically a motor that is running the whole time it is on and double the size the output (10hp 3p = 20hp motor.
If I hadn’t come across the used PP I was going to go with American rotary, they are pretty good units that have good balance for a rotary, stay away from a Kay industry rotary from what i have researched and herd from users the wild leg is exactly that, wild
Last edited by Mark e Kessler; 02-12-2022 at 10:52 PM.
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Yes Bryan, would love to chat about it, you're actually the first person I've heard who has one! I'll shoot you a message.
[OP]
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I think I should give pp a call to see what they would suggest and get some ideas... I'm more concerned about having to take away from my saw budget to accommodate electric but it does it open a lot more on the used front.
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Everything is better 3p, you need to look at the Phase converter as just another piece of ww equipment. Once you get it installed and start buying/using 3p equipment you will forget that it even cost anything. It may seem like you are taking money from your saw budget but not really because you will be able to pickup a used 3p saw/equipment that will outperform any new single phase machine that is in your budget.
You don’t need to do it all at the same time, once you commit to going three phase get that sorted whether it’s a PP or Rotary and get it installed that way when the right saw comes along you can snap it up. I am partial to PP and would do nothing different as it is superior and not much more than Rotary when found used but rotary works and has for a long time so if you have decision paralysis on that just go with what you are comfortable with so you can get moving on it.
I always had a mix of 3p and 1p when I had my business but the buildings I was in had 3p so I didn’t have to deal with conversion, I too was hesitant to deal with 3p conversion for my hobby shop until a few years ago and also looked at it as an extra expense and could use the money to buy something else but now that it is installed I don’t even think of the cost, more like all the inexpensive industrial equipment i could get for low dollar. I have been wanting a wide belt sander forever but the only one I could really get would be a northstate open end, i know folks that have them and they are ok but i really don’t like the idea of it.
A month ago i was real close to buying one because i do not have the space for a 37” and then a scmi 24” 3p popped up at less than half the cost of the north state delivered, that sander even at 20yrs old will do laps around an open belt, i called them up and pulled my CC out, if i had not had the converter installed already I don’t know if i would have jumped on it because of the hurdle of the additional expense and to get the converter installed. That’s why earlier I mentioned to make a decision on the 3p if you decide thats the way to go get it installed then continue the search for equipment that way it won’t seem like an added expense or more money you need to come up with (even though it was, lol)
Last edited by Mark e Kessler; 02-13-2022 at 9:34 AM.
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I am going to try to take a look at that 1998 Altendorf machine this week, I will report on what I see/find out. Looks like it is very good condition - seller trying or planning to sell building it is located in.
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I agree with Mark, again. If I were to do it all over again, i would go with a converter and all used 3 phase machines from the getgo. At a certain point, you are limited in quality/capacity of the machine by not having 3 phase. For example, you can buy a Felder 700 series in single phase, but im pretty sure you cant buy a single phase 900 series or format4 machine. Martin doesnt make single phase machines. Not to say a Felder 700 is garbage and you cant work with it(i own one, i like it), but those other machines are better. You can buy a 12-16" jointer in single phase, but i cant say ive ever seen a 20" machine in single phase. I personally have an issue with my limitations to upgrade my planer. I have a single phase powermatic 209hh. Its OK and planes wood, but i would much rather have a SCM 24" planer or similar. Other than a 22" import 2 post machine, i kinda cant upgrade my planer while sticking with single phase. Unlike my jointer and table saw, i cant easily convert most 3 phase planers because they are too complex--cutterhead motor, feed motor, typically bed raise/lower motor. I was a dummy and did VFDs for the other 3 machines, because it was convenient and cheap at the time. If this saw is your final tool purchase/upgrade, then maybe power conversion isnt for you, and then you should get a new single phase saw. However, if you see yourself upgrading other tools, then its worth it to bite the bullet up front.
Dave, let us know how you fair. If you buy it, you can send me a finder's fee : ) I suppose the seller should be the one to pay me, i just marketed his machine to a few hundred folks here.
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Hi Patrick, right now I can't see in my future adding any other 3ph equipment to this shop....if I get to a point of expansion then I would be in another location and that might be a different story. I have no room for a wide belt and if I do get a CNC it will most likely start relatively small and be single so this is the only piece for now. That said, I'm not opposed to using a convertor if it all makes sense.
One question...you make a point that I agree with but can't really put my finger on....you said something like "those machines are better"....I've used a 700 also, what actually makes a martin or f45 or format 4 "Better" outside of the offerings of automation...because if the saw is accurate, has enough power, and slides nicely...I can't really put my finger on what better really means, although I have a similar sentiment. Thoughts?
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Kurt,
Patrick, I do not mean to abduct the conversation...
This is what I see/Feel
Chassis is more substantial and reduces vibration - smoother cut, better longevity, better support for the slider and outrigger and allows for smoother operation overall.
The saw aggregate is more substantial as you move up in size and HP. They are stronger and move more smoothly.
The outrigger has more possible options on the higher end larger machines
They pay more attention on how smoothly the machine functions.
The 3ph motors are butter smooth and manage start up current with star-delta start up. A large single phase motor cannot.
I am sure there is more...
PK
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I havent used an Altendorf or newer Martin, so i am not the guy you want to compare and contrast builds. However, here are some minor critiques of the Felder KF700 I own that i assume are not an issue on higher class machines. The flip stop on the cross cut fence is slightly out of square. Ive seen this on the FOG, so its not just my machine. You kinda have to tap it here and there with a hammer to get it as close to square as possible. This really only comes into play on parts that are over 1.5-2" tall. Minor stuff, but it can mean your off 1/64" on some parts. Also, you need to be ginger af with bumping into that flag. You will definitely mess that up if you are bumping 3/4" stock into it on a regular basis. You would laugh if you saw how careful i treat that stop. The table is very smooth, but if you put a 3/4" sheet of ply on the table and outrigger, it flexes an uncomfortable amount. See my prior comment about the flip stop. Putting large workpieces on the machine is a very delicate dance for me with a FAT300. The rip fence leaves a lot to be desired on ergonomics and feel, but it seems to hold its settings, so no big deal. Finally, the machine is not very large, so you need auxiliary support when cutting large pieces. It is an excellent machine for me from a furniture making perspective. Crosscuting parts to later be dominoed was a gamechanger for me as far as speed and accuracy of the final product. I used to make fairly large end grain island tops/cutting boards, and the machine was a dream for those. All of the 3-5" thick crosscuts were so accurate to one another that it saved me hours and hours of final sanding of the end grain surface. My last project was a 8' built in for my home office, and this is where the build of the 700 seems a little light. As i said, a full sheet of 3/4" will drop the end of the crosscut extrusion and outrigger by 1/4"-1/2". I had a vintage Martin t75, and for a laugh i sat on the sliding table and went for a ride at full extents. It didnt do much at all and im about 195lbs. I would never do that to the Felder. Same for the Martin t17 thats in my garage right now. It isnt as refined as the Felder, but it really makes you realize the value engineering that went into the 700 to meet a price point. Finally, i am friendly with a few pro shop owners locally and ive messed around with 90-2000s SCMI saws. You come away with an understanding how the Felder 700 is for well-heeled hobbyists or light duty furniture makers and the Martins, SCM, Altendorfs are made for shops with employees putting out a fair amount of product each year. I do think you would be really pleased with a machine in the class of a Felder 700, but that is because you seem to work on medium size pieces, you dont have employees, and you will most likely baby that machine. My machine has held its settings very well for 4-5 years of light use. I also treat it like like my 6 week old daughter.
Its all a matter of build quality. If you arent pushing a machine to its limits, then great build quality isnt too important to you. For example, i dont think a Martin t75 preX is any better at making kumiko than a Felder 500, but you better believe its the better cabinet/architectural millwork machine. Its also made to live in a harsher setting and hold its tolerances for longer. The good news is just about any machine discussed in this thread will be an eye-opening experience coming from the jet cabinet saw.
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The machine I sell the most of to 1-3 man cabinet shops is the K500S. And they overwhelmingly love it. People talk about how you need this or that level of slider for professional use. I'm in shops all day long and 90% of them are doing it all on a regular cabinet saw (or nesting router). Sure, hardcore millwork requires larger equipment but if all you're doing is cutting sheet goods and 5/4-ish solid lumber, you really don't need much more than the most basic (albeit well-built) slider. A K500S or K700S will handle all that. Anything more for hobby shops is just a shiny object.
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
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I think Erik makes a good point, the k500 is probably close to your budget and you can avoid an asian saw just know its Hammer saw unit with the xroll (a Honda with a Mercedes accessory), get it single phase so you can sell it easy if you outgrow it or want to step up your game.
Have to say though I do like shiny objects, and as you move up in build quality more shiny stuff that increases your efficiency is available
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Mark, just to clarify: The K500S uses a true double-hung trunion saw unit with the Easy-Glide ways. Not as beefy as a 700-series but the design is identical, just scaled down. Same with the Hammer K4 perform. It's the Hammer K3's that use a more hobby-oriented pillow block design.
Erik
Hemza K500S-1.jpg.jpg
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
Contributor
ahh, thanks for the clarification. Is that a recent change in the past few years? I thought the saw unit was identical to the Hammer.
What kinda hours of use per day in a professional before you would want to step up to the 700, is there another metric like number of employees before you would recommend stepping up? Always curious about these kind of things, id imagine with the step up to the xroll it widens the gap on when to step up.
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