Buying a Slider....opinions/help

[Erik Loza]

unwilling friends/neighbors/children

Are you sure that's a good idea?

The children have no choice.

Erik

[Charles Coolidge]

I sent a knee mill out of my residential garage. The buyer rented a telescoping fork lift for not much money that reached into the garage, picked up the mill (these things lift pallets of roofing shingles up onto roofs the mill weight was childs play) and retracted it. Pretty easy rigging honestly.

[Kendall Scheier]

For anyone who cares, from a supplier's viewpoint:

-If at all possible, PICK UP YOUR MACHINE AT A LOCAL TERMINAL. This alone will mitigate the possibility of freight damage or at the very least, de-burden you of having to deal with it should hidden damage occur. The responsibility of solving the freight claim will rest on the shoulders of he/she who is in possession of the machine.

-No matter what a supplier tells you, be prepared to tackle logistical challenges on the delivery side. Have pallet jacks, tools, extra lumber, and unwilling friends/neighbors/children to help with this process. If anyone has it in their mind that "such-and-such vendor" will do a better job of delivery, they are mistaken. No matter who you purchase from, we are all beholden to the same (not large) pool of LTL carriers to get equipment from point-a to point-b.

-This is the trailer we have been recommending to customers lately. Most Sunbelts can offer them.

Hope this helps,

Erik

I used a similar trailer and it worked fantastically

[Kurt Wyberanec]

You can usually find a used 10hp PP for 2000-2500 and can get 36a out of it (70a 1 phase) and actually a little more, so used not really that much more than equivalent new rotary which would be a 20hp. There is a cost savings but for hobby not much in standby for 4 hrs for 5 days a week its like $350 in elect depending the PP is pretty much zero. The PP is also very balanced so it plays nice with electronics.

Yes, it’s like pulling teeth to get prices and it ordered and time depending who they are, i was on a 2-3 week return call cycle for months and i was trying to throw money at them. I will say though after i fired my salesman and was assigned a new one he was excellent but at that point I escalated the issue to top management so I am sure he was on a mission, looks like you are in CT, Tim Derr was his name and I would deal with him again. Yes there is an arrogance attitude within Felder corporate, some of that is cultural but that is a different discussion.

As far as dro, some are happy with wixey I have never had luck with them. Mag strip dro is the best way to go but can be about 500 and one of the reasons why is you do not need an encoder rail, the fiama comes to mind (the f7) https://fiama-us.com/fiama-products/...on-indicators/

The other option that i have used with success on a slider is an accurate technologys, i used it on an scmi xcut and rip I had one for 25+ years and recently sold it for $200 i think it cost like $700 when i bought it, used it on many saws over the years. I am getting ready to buy one for a new piece of equipment. If you use it on the xcut you loose the ability to use the fence in the forward position because the encoder rail has to be screwed to the face of the fence. There might be a way to make it work but i never tried as this saw was dedicated to busting up entire lifts of sheet goods. Now for me it wouldn’t work, i like using the fence in the forward position whenever it makes sense,, like furniture size parts. The other benefit is in a small shop which i have it puts the outrigger and fence in a position that isn’t in the way as much (for my layout).

For the rip you should be able to use the one for the cabinet saw $300
https://www.proscale.com/products/in...ets/digifence/
they also make a kit for the xcut, looks much cleaner then what i had but they weren’t making custom solutions it was a firs gen.
https://www.proscale.com/products/in...-digital-kits/

Mark, I dealt with Tim Derr also, but alas was told he's no longer with them. I had good experiences with him, so it goes.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Sorry, just noticed this. Kurt, this doesn't make sense to me. True that Felder's website is terrible to navigate but I will gladly tell a customer the ballpark list price of any machine over the phone or by direct email and imagine ditto for our other reps. Assuming are talking about a stock configuration rather than a some custom build. Not sure who you are working with but if you are having trouble connecting, let me know and I'll reach out to that rep and see that you get taken care of. As a Felder rep, I can 100% guarantee that if a customer is asking for specific pricing, the US sales team takes that request very seriously. Thanks,

Erik

Hi Erik, you might expect they would but unfortunately hasn't been the case for me lately. Had recently had a discussion when ordering my HS-950 with someone (won't mention here) and while we eventually made that deal happen took a couple of weeks, I couldn't get any sort of slider pricing yet. Was just trying to find my entry point as to what machines are in my ball park and haven't been successful. Two of the reps didn't even back to me. Don't get me wrong, this is not the only company that sometimes behaves like this there are plenty in various industries but when someone is trying to give you money you would think they'd be eager lol.

Anyway, would be more than happy to have a discussion on some pricing if you can. I'm relatively new here as a poster but have been a reader for a long time so I'm still getting used to some of the rules and requirements. I think I have to make a donation somewhere to get access to pics, pms, and classified replies....I'll try to get in on that, but let me know how I can get in touch with you and we can discuss. Thanks very much!

[Erik Loza]

Kurt, I'm obviously in the dark about your conversation with Felder but here is what I can share:

-Regarding sales reps, we have an experienced sales manager in the DE office who will absolutely make sure you get a call back if that's what you want. I imagine that the rep you are or did work with is out of the DE office. If you want me to get this manager involved, message me offline.

-As far as pricing goes, what you need to know is that it will be at least $11K to get a full panel-sized machine from Felder. And the same goes for the Italians. Anything less will be a cross-cutting or short-stroke slider. Assuming you want to be able to rip full sheets on the slider, that is. Based on In my experience, pricing between Austrian and Italian brands is very close, assuming we are talking apples-to-apples in terms of spec. Anytime a person sees a new full-sized slider for less than $10K, that machine will be East Asian in origin. Hope this helps,

Erik

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Kurt, I'm obviously in the dark about your conversation with Felder but here is what I can share:

-Regarding sales reps, we have an experienced sales manager in the DE office who will absolutely make sure you get a call back if that's what you want. I imagine that the rep you are or did work with is out of the DE office. If you want me to get this manager involved, message me offline.

-As far as pricing goes, what you need to know is that it will be at least $11K to get a full panel-sized machine from Felder. And the same goes for the Italians. Anything less will be a cross-cutting or short-stroke slider. Assuming you want to be able to rip full sheets on the slider, that is. Based on In my experience, pricing between Austrian and Italian brands is very close, assuming we are talking apples-to-apples in terms of spec. Anytime a person sees a new full-sized slider for less than $10K, that machine will be East Asian in origin. Hope this helps,

Erik

Hi Erik, I'll try to sign up so I can have access to PMs cause I'd love to have a conversation. Thanks.

[Jeff Geltz]

So I'll try to relay my experience without mentioning any vendor names so as to keep the parties innocent.

After many years of owning a beefy cabinet saw painted in gold with an aftermarket bolt on slider I decided to buy a proper slider as part of a geographic move. I was lucky enough to find a pampered used one that was in a hobby shop vs a production shop and it showed. Not a scratch on it. The prior owner even trucked it half way across the country. Couldn't have been a nicer guy.

The saw had a 10 HP motor and a 10 foot slider with both the saw blade and the fence electronically controlled through a screen. The saw was gorgeous to behold and use. Only trouble was that about a couple of months after I owned it the screen developed issues to the point where it was unresponsive. My dream saw was now a 2,000 pound boat anchor. Fortunately the manufacturer's support team was quite responsive but the solution was hard to swallow. New parts were needed - a new voltage converter in the machine itself, a new board in the machine, plus an entirely new CPU/display unit, and all of this had to be installed by one of their techs or no warranty. The estimate was $6,500 all-in for parts, labor and expenses. After several weeks of agonizing and looking at various new saw options I finally pulled the trigger on the repairs. That was several years ago and the saw has performed flawlessly ever since. Not only is it dreamy to operate but the word has spread about its capabilities and I get referral work from the local lumber yards for milling slabs that no one else would dare attempt to work on.

Here's the point of the story. In my mind there is no way I could go back to a cabinet saw given what the slider has allowed me to accomplish. As to slider selection, one of the biggest decisions to keep in mind is the level of automation you opt for. There is no question that the screen allows a level of not only accuracy but repeatability that manual fence and blade adjustments simply can't touch. The downside is that the technology in a saw gets dated over time. Years down the road if you are lucky - the manufacturer is still in business and luckier still they can source parts to replace your now dated model of their machine that by then is no longer manufactured.

Clearly the way to avoid the issues I ran into is to buy a saw without all of the electronic bells and whistles. Having gone through hell and back with them - in retrospect I would opt for the electronic options again given what they allow me to do.

Good luck in your decision.

[Kevin Jenness]

So I'll try to relay my experience without mentioning any vendor names so as to keep the parties innocent.

After many years of owning a beefy cabinet saw painted in gold with an aftermarket bolt on slider I decided to buy a proper slider as part of a geographic move. I was lucky enough to find a pampered used one that was in a hobby shop vs a production shop and it showed. Not a scratch on it. The prior owner even trucked it half way across the country. Couldn't have been a nicer guy.

The saw had a 10 HP motor and a 10 foot slider with both the saw blade and the fence electronically controlled through a screen. The saw was gorgeous to behold and use. Only trouble was that about a couple of months after I owned it the screen developed issues to the point where it was unresponsive. My dream saw was now a 2,000 pound boat anchor. Fortunately the manufacturer's support team was quite responsive but the solution was hard to swallow. New parts were needed - a new voltage converter in the machine itself, a new board in the machine, plus an entirely new CPU/display unit, and all of this had to be installed by one of their techs or no warranty. The estimate was $6,500 all-in for parts, labor and expenses. After several weeks of agonizing and looking at various new saw options I finally pulled the trigger on the repairs. That was several years ago and the saw has performed flawlessly ever since. Not only is it dreamy to operate but the word has spread about its capabilities and I get referral work from the local lumber yards for milling slabs that no one else would dare attempt to work on.

Here's the point of the story. In my mind there is no way I could go back to a cabinet saw given what the slider has allowed me to accomplish. As to slider selection, one of the biggest decisions to keep in mind is the level of automation you opt for. There is no question that the screen allows a level of not only accuracy but repeatability that manual fence and blade adjustments simply can't touch. The downside is that the technology in a saw gets dated over time. Years down the road if you are lucky - the manufacturer is still in business and luckier still they can source parts to replace your now dated model of their machine that by then is no longer manufactured.

Clearly the way to avoid the issues I ran into is to buy a saw without all of the electronic bells and whistles. Having gone through hell and back with them - in retrospect I would opt for the electronic options again given what they allow me to do.

Good luck in your decision.

Names would actually be helpful, but the principle is well explained without. I fall on the other side of the automation divide, and would prefer to have a machine that will do the basics without proprietary electronics to fail, but I understand your choice. It would be more difficult to justify for most hobbyists who are not producing work under time constraints.

There is a Kolle slider for sale near me which I am sure is an excellent machine, but I know the shop is swapping it out due to fear of it becoming a boat anchor when the circuit board fails with Kolle unable to provide parts. The same issue holds true for mechanical parts from suppliers who are here today and gone tomorrow. Martin. Altendorf, SCMI and Felder may not last forever, but they have been around a long time and have a proven track record. That is not necessarily true of the anonymous Chaiwanese factories making sliders for Noth American importers.

[Patrick Kane]

Names would actually be helpful, but the principle is well explained without. I fall on the other side of the automation divide, and would prefer to have a machine that will do the basics without proprietary electronics to fail, but I understand your choice. It would be more difficult to justify for most hobbyists who are not producing work under time constraints.

There is a Kolle slider for sale near me which I am sure is an excellent machine, but I know the shop is swapping it out due to fear of it becoming a boat anchor when the circuit board fails with Kolle unable to provide parts. The same issue holds true for mechanical parts from suppliers who are here today and gone tomorrow. Martin. Altendorf, SCMI and Felder may not last forever, but they have been around a long time and have a proven track record. That is not necessarily true of the anonymous Chaiwanese factories making sliders for Noth American importers.

The price of the repair and the level of support would lead me to believe Jeff's saw is a certain color blue. All reasons why i really want a 1999-2001 martin t72a WITHOUT the electronics. There were just a number of T73's and T72As for sale in the northeast for right around $10k, but they all were electronic controls. Spending $10k on a saw followed by an immediate $6500 would really sour me. Ive read enough messages on woodweb to stay as far away from 2000-2008 martin electronics as humanly possible.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

So I'll try to relay my experience without mentioning any vendor names so as to keep the parties innocent.

After many years of owning a beefy cabinet saw painted in gold with an aftermarket bolt on slider I decided to buy a proper slider as part of a geographic move. I was lucky enough to find a pampered used one that was in a hobby shop vs a production shop and it showed. Not a scratch on it. The prior owner even trucked it half way across the country. Couldn't have been a nicer guy.

The saw had a 10 HP motor and a 10 foot slider with both the saw blade and the fence electronically controlled through a screen. The saw was gorgeous to behold and use. Only trouble was that about a couple of months after I owned it the screen developed issues to the point where it was unresponsive. My dream saw was now a 2,000 pound boat anchor. Fortunately the manufacturer's support team was quite responsive but the solution was hard to swallow. New parts were needed - a new voltage converter in the machine itself, a new board in the machine, plus an entirely new CPU/display unit, and all of this had to be installed by one of their techs or no warranty. The estimate was $6,500 all-in for parts, labor and expenses. After several weeks of agonizing and looking at various new saw options I finally pulled the trigger on the repairs. That was several years ago and the saw has performed flawlessly ever since. Not only is it dreamy to operate but the word has spread about its capabilities and I get referral work from the local lumber yards for milling slabs that no one else would dare attempt to work on.

Here's the point of the story. In my mind there is no way I could go back to a cabinet saw given what the slider has allowed me to accomplish. As to slider selection, one of the biggest decisions to keep in mind is the level of automation you opt for. There is no question that the screen allows a level of not only accuracy but repeatability that manual fence and blade adjustments simply can't touch. The downside is that the technology in a saw gets dated over time. Years down the road if you are lucky - the manufacturer is still in business and luckier still they can source parts to replace your now dated model of their machine that by then is no longer manufactured.

Clearly the way to avoid the issues I ran into is to buy a saw without all of the electronic bells and whistles. Having gone through hell and back with them - in retrospect I would opt for the electronic options again given what they allow me to do.

Good luck in your decision.

Thanks Jeff, sounds like you had a relatively good experience in the end.

Totally your choice, but forums like these are IMO meant to call out both the good and bad for the manufactures....it's a path towards progress for most industries.....

For me, all the gizmos are not in my budget (certainly for a new machine and even most of those used that I see with them) The only thing that is on my wishlist in terms of that would be DRO on the fences if possible. I have been using an INCRA fence on my saw for quite a long time and it has required minimal maintenance (even after a move). I can dial in to the 1/32 much fast that I could probably type those numbers into an automated machine and if I need to (which for woodworking is hardly ever with the exception of fitting a friction fit piece) I can dial to 1/100th. It's not to say the fence doesn't have it's shortcomings, it does....some of which make no sense to me honestly. I have the 50" model, but you still can only set it up to do a max 32" cut. So it's not really a 50, that's my biggest issue. Well, technically you can make those cuts but you have to move the entire carriage each time and likewise no one has time for that. There are some other things it could do better, and honestly some of them those with patience could probably figure out great solutions for with custom jigs and brackets....but regardless I have been extremely happy with this fence. My issue is that I am going to step up to a saw that's 2-3x the cost of what originally paid new for this equipment and I am going to lose accuracy and repeatability....to me that's not acceptable and I have to figure out a way to make it happen. DROs seem the best solution, but depending on the machine I have seen some people even retro fit their INCRA systems in various ways....

Thanks again for the input though...USED scares me but I like the savings potential....it's like buying a used car....you can get the car you couldn't afford new but it MIGHT have issues.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

The price of the repair and the level of support would lead me to believe Jeff's saw is a certain color blue. All reasons why i really want a 1999-2001 martin t72a WITHOUT the electronics. There were just a number of T73's and T72As for sale in the northeast for right around $10k, but they all were electronic controls. Spending $10k on a saw followed by an immediate $6500 would really sour me. Ive read enough messages on woodweb to stay as far away from 2000-2008 martin electronics as humanly possible.

Patrick, where did you see these Martins for 10k??? I have only seen one recently that's listed in Brooklyn, but quite an old machine and definitely not automated. I'm just curious because they're all 3 phase I'm sure and I probably want to stick to single but if the right machine came along I would look into a phase perfect (which I have yet to totally understand).

[Jeff Geltz]

Thanks again for the input though...USED scares me but I like the savings potential....it's like buying a used car....you can get the car you couldn't afford new but it MIGHT have issues.

I agree with that. I always buy stuff used and sometimes I get a deal and sometimes I get bitten. In this case I got both.

The prior owner shared the original invoice for the saw with me. In addition to that the saw also included upgrades like an air clamping system, extra handles, dado blade system, frame angle system, etc. The price I paid all-in including the repairs was still about a third of just the saw invoice price.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... My dream saw was now a 2,000 pound boat anchor.
... the saw has performed flawlessly ever since.
... the screen allows a level of not only accuracy but repeatability that manual fence and blade adjustments simply can't touch. The downside is that the technology in a saw gets dated over time. Years down the road if you are lucky - the manufacturer is still in business and luckier still they can source parts to replace your now dated model of their machine that by then is no longer manufactured.
...

.... I fall on the other side of the automation divide, and would prefer to have a machine that will do the basics without proprietary electronics to fail, ...

... WITHOUT the electronics. ... all were electronic controls. ....

^ A random capture of key concepts and beliefs in automation and controls. They emphasize that all businesses and most (hobby) owners of electronic equipment need a migration plan.

You probably have a plan for your PC, one for your phone, your tablet, TV, etc. Your plan may be to simply buy a new one when the old breaks, or the service provider subsidizes outright replacement, a Geek Squad visit, or maybe a desktop translator for the FCC mandated analog to digital (TV) signals so you can keep that RCA 25" CRT with 4:3 screen.

Electronics have limited residual value due to the rapid advances in the technology, so buying a new one is most peoples migration 'plan'. Fortunately, price points of so many devices allow this outright replacement. Rarely do we repair electronic devices anymore. And replacement avoids any discussion of obsolescence.

What do you do when the electronics are part of a larger whole...?

Why not have such a migration plan for your saw - - other than the long held belief (habit?) that saws don't need a electronic migration plan? Or, as implied by Mr. Kane's example, do the owners bail on the entire machine - just for a bad motor, switch, or even just a diode. (My brother is not technically inclined. Not even a little. He watched a 'tube presentation, ordered 3 surface mount capacitors smaller than a grain of rice, and fixed his TV. He spent $20 and 30-40 minutes, rather than a new $1500 TV.)

When does the residual value of the mechanical system, justify repairs and/or replacement of the controls? Bad main blade motor on a slider? Replace it, or junk the saw?
Who bails on a $50k CNC router or $500k 6-axis machining center when a servo motor fails? Motor not made anymore? Adapt a new one. Drive is bad? New generation drive and motor to match. New drive won't interface to the controller? Get a new controller. Maybe it's time to start over with a fresh control system? Hire a System Integrator to design/build/program a new system - - or adapt the entire kit from a new saw. I think we often limit ourselves to electronics we can DIY-repair, not what is possible.

If by some chance - - big stretch - - I end up with a 3-axis motorized sliding table saw and the controls (someday) go bad, my plan will be to break the proprietary technology barrier. The OEM wants to handcuff owners of their products to the OEM's parts department with custom compiled code, IC boards, displays, - and presumably servos/drives/etc. (I've not looked under this hood yet). I am fortunate to have that skill set, using common off-the-shelf parts available to anyone.

In a previous life, I was integral to the planning and execution of a control migration for a manufacturer of a food product for a major retail chain. The mechanical systems in one production line cost more than my neighborhood. Long story short, they doubled production, ROI was about 3 weeks, and they were BIG happy!! Might work for a slider , too?

[Phillip Mitchell]

Problem is most of the rest of us are woodworkers and not electrical engineers. I can say that I have a fairly low tolerance for electronics related troubleshooting based on both limited knowledge, desire to learn it, and the $ lost from downtime of a failure. Give me a manual machine with only electronics that can be overridden by manual control in event of a failure every day.