Buying a Slider....opinions/help

[Richard Coers]

I also disagree. I work primarily with solid stock and I'm really missing not having the slider right now with my temporary shop. I've really hated going back to a cabinet saw, even temporarily.

I knew I would get push back and disagreement. This is a very pro slider forum. I am just going by the amount of work he does with sheet goods. I'm assuming that when someone says, "So I am a one man shop doing this for a living (at least a good part of it) for almost 20 years. I build primarily high end guitar and bass speaker cabinets mostly from hardwoods" and that "but I do venture into furniture and other sorts of products and projects as well". That boils down to how many times a month he venture. He certainly doesn't need a slider to make guitars, which is around half of his effort for 20 years. But I'm making some assumptions about his generalizations. But what do I know.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... trying to buy a slider ...

I too am looking, casually for 10-12 months, and now 3-4mo seriously. I have tried every manner of auction I can locate; even called about having one shipped from Poland*. I find 2 basic classes of used saws: 1) 'as-is, where-is', and the 'where' is a war zone, a wrecking yard, or a 3-day drive just to look (no matter how generous the terms); and, 2) it is a 50 yr old saw, listed for half or more of new. Forget about bidding against a commercial shop - who can see an ROI in their bid at least, with 25% deposit for your expected max bid, 15% buyer's premium, 8% sales tax, proof of insurance to get in the building, $1500 for the designated union rigger to move it onto your rigger's forklift to move it 8' to your vehicle at the dock, with 24 hrs to get there and clear it from the building on winning the bid. Did I mention the warranty? Q:"Does it run?" A:"It used to, sure!" (And I still don't need 15Hp to make furniture.)

So let's look at new..?? Whatever you do, don't even insinuate you are a small shop, or horrors ... a hobbyist! All you'll hear on the other end of the call is a splash as their phone is dropped down the well. You can ask 8 questions and get the answer to the 1 question that they *think* you asked. Instead, tell them you are the head of R&D for GE or Exxon, getting into the furniture biz in a big way, need a lab saw immediately, with a PO for $1.8B as soon as you OK the racing stripe paint scheme on the v-belt.

And just the tiniest bit of hyperbole here.

I am down to the SCM SI315, Altendorf WA 6, or the WA 8X (yeah, stretching on that last one ... w/ all the electree-o-tronical geegaws. Power seats. Infotainment. ABS. Custom casters. ...For my dad. )

Now if they'll just call me back. And I can get some of the cynicism washed off of me.

*-LOTS of good cheap sliders in Europe; just a PITA - at least for me - to get 'em here.

[Derek Cohen]

I purchased the Hamme K3 Winner at least five years ago. It has a 48" or 49" slide on it and works great. It took a while to adjust after all the years with a Unisaw, but now it's like second nature. No regrets in the least.

I have the exact same saw. It is great for my needs building furniture of solid wood. No sheet goods. I am a hobbiest. However, the K3/49" wagon would not be my choice if I used sheet goods for business. I would want what the OP wants - a longer wagon with the ability to cut 8' panels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Kane]

I too am looking, casually for 10-12 months, and now 3-4mo seriously. I have tried every manner of auction I can locate; even called about having one shipped from Poland*. I find 2 basic classes of used saws: 1) 'as-is, where-is', and the 'where' is a war zone, a wrecking yard, or a 3-day drive just to look (no matter how generous the terms); and, 2) it is a 50 yr old saw, listed for half or more of new. Forget about bidding against a commercial shop - who can see an ROI in their bid at least, with 25% deposit for your expected max bid, 15% buyer's premium, 8% sales tax, proof of insurance to get in the building, $1500 for the designated union rigger to move it onto your rigger's forklift to move it 8' to your vehicle at the dock, with 24 hrs to get there and clear it from the building on winning the bid. Did I mention the warranty? Q:"Does it run?" A:"It used to, sure!" (And I still don't need 15Hp to make furniture.)
.

This was very funny. Especially the auction bit. I have some experience purchasing things from auctions, and even more experience trying to purchase things from auctions. They arent my favorite, i would much prefer to do a direct sale with the seller. As you jokingly mention, the speed at which you need to move for an auction is stupid. Especially when you are a state away. Sure, let me win the auction at 4pm, wire you the money within an hour before the banks close, and then have 0 business hours to organize loading and transport the next day. As you mention, if you need to involve your own personal rigger, the economics of the deal are done.

I need to understand the build process of making guitars and speaker cabinets to really provide accurate advice. Like i said before, the best upgrade for this guy is probably a stout 4x4 CNC to do the guitar bodies, fret boards, and potentially assist with the speaker cabinet builds. Not to mention it can expand your offerings or assist in furniture production by making templates etc. However, i do think a sliding table saw assists in just about any woodworking operation. It makes you better and faster at any task involving a crosscut. Highly repeatable and dead accurate results coupled with a DF700 make most furniture production very very fast. Unless you are doing Maloof-esque furniture, a slider and a domino will automatically make you better, faster, more profitable at making furniture/built-ins.

Here are some used options that i, Patrick, would personally consider for myself. I dont know where you are, but i would buy these after a simple phone call with the seller sight unseen.
Martin Sliding table Saw - tools - by owner - sale (craigslist.org) Cheap option to get in the game. Like i said, i dont like the outrigger and crosscut fence, but you can buy a Felder crosscut fence with stops for under a grand, which would improve this machine immensely. This has an enormous blade capacity(18-20"), and can handle large groovers.
Woodworking Tools and Materials for Sale - tools - by owner - sale (craigslist.org)
SCMI Sliding Table Saw - tools - by owner - sale (craigslist.org) Stretching the budget maybe, but this is a very new saw.

[Erik Loza]

To the OP: First step should be to define your budget and and what size machine you actually want. Your list ranges from Honda Civic to full-sized truck. From the supplier's standpoint, open-ended "tell me what to buy" questions are the most challenging to answer in any useful way. I hope this makes sense.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

I knew I would get push back and disagreement. This is a very pro slider forum. I am just going by the amount of work he does with sheet goods. I'm assuming that when someone says, "So I am a one man shop doing this for a living (at least a good part of it) for almost 20 years. I build primarily high end guitar and bass speaker cabinets mostly from hardwoods" and that "but I do venture into furniture and other sorts of products and projects as well". That boils down to how many times a month he venture. He certainly doesn't need a slider to make guitars, which is around half of his effort for 20 years. But I'm making some assumptions about his generalizations. But what do I know.

Just try to envision that sliders don't have to be about sheet goods. As I mentioned, I use very little sheet goods and at this point, I cut most of that on the CNC. But even before the CNC, I didn't work with much in the way of sheet goods. The slider, however, was a boon to my processing of solid stock in many ways. And my hand was rarely near the blade. Even with the SS PCS I'm using in the temporary shop, I get really itchy because I necessarily have to have my hand(s) a lot closer to the blade than I'm used to. Subjective thing, however...

[Malcolm McLeod]

Here are some used options ....

Mr. Kane, Thanks very much for the links (1 of them I had seen already). 2 are that proverbial 3-day drive from TX to inspect, or p/u, or talk the seller into shipping it. Pensacola is only a (long) 1 day drive, but at that price (+ transportation and phase converter), I can get new w/ warranty in single phase and it includes shipping.

...Stuck between a rock and a conundrum!

Ring, little phone! Ring! Please.

[Jacques Gagnon]

Derek,

I decided to order the 2000mm wagon with a view to be able to handle some/most of the operations on a full sheet of plywood when needed. The size of my shop (single car garage) did not suit itself to longer sliders.

As a lot of my hobby work involves solid wood, this configuration works well for me. My machine (Hammer B3) is located next to a wall and the 1300mm rip capacity allows me to crosscut a full sheet in half without having to move anything.

I obviously cannot rip along the full sheet in one pass but, as you have shared in a previous post, it is nonetheless possible to work around this limitation.

By the way, your ideas and innovative approaches have been, and will continue to be, useful as I learn how to use the slider. Thanks for sharing ��.

Regards,

J.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

To the OP: First step should be to define your budget and and what size machine you actually want. Your list ranges from Honda Civic to full-sized truck. From the supplier's standpoint, open-ended "tell me what to buy" questions are the most challenging to answer in any useful way. I hope this makes sense.

Erik

Hi Erik, one of the first things I mentioned was staying under 10k. I listed 2 sizes of machines, either a short stroke that can handle 5x5 BB or an 8.5ft if the price and value are there....I would only take a 10ft machine if it were a fantastic value or were the only option for example the Maksiwa saws are either short stroke or 10ft, no 8 option. And those would all of course still have to stay under 10k in the shop done.

I know you were with both SCM and Felder now....I've dealt with Tim Darr there in the past but now he's gone and I just ordered a sander from Geoff. That said, I still haven't been able to see anything in the way of what prices look like for some of the Hammer and Felder saws in question. At least with SCM I can just do a search online and there are several places selling them so I can have an idea. Any help or guidance there is appreciated. Thanks!

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I'm a slider fan and will have one again in the new shop building once it's up...I miss it dearly. I'm in the SCM/Minimax camp (SC3C most likely), although when I buy, a Hammer will also get compared and considered. The major difference between the SC3C and the SC4C is the wagon length; the former is "medium" short stroke and the latter is 8'6" wagon and a little heavier. The next step up is the S315 which is the 10' wagon.

I think you really need to narrow down the format you want to support what you want to do with it. Short strokes are great, but if you want to work with longer things, they obviously are not going to be the best choice. There are too many on your current list....


So narrow down what your actual cutting requirements are going to be.

HI Jim, thanks for pointing out the difference in the 3 vs 4....I don't know how I missed that...I guess the pics of the 3 are misleading, in most it looks like a longer machine. So I guess the real question then becomes what's the big difference between the 2 and the 3 for the short strokes? In terms of requirements, the only real requirement is that it has to be able to cut a 5x5 sheet....beyond that I could if necessary operate the saw as a typical cabinet saw if I want to rip long boards, but it would be nice to be able to do them on the slider if available.

In an ideal world, I could find a great solid 8.5ft slider that has some nice features maybe even a digital readout on the fence and tilt (or a good retrofit) and comes in under 8k. But does that exist?????? LOL

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Thanks for all the replies guys, but I just want to say that very few have actually talked about any of the specific saws I listed. Has anyone had their hands on a Maksiwa? The Cantek 305?

Most people on here have had some type of experience with Martin, Felder SCM and Altendorf which is all great...but in reality most of those machines are out of reach for my budget. On the used market some can be found, but it's near impossible to find those and single phase. Some of you mentioned getting a convertor...but not only does that add 1-2k onto the price but it also adds another item on the electric bill lol. And in terms of used machines, for instance that old Martin in Brooklyn available for 2k....yeah seems like a good value, but honestly don't want to deal with the hassle of fixing other peoples abuse, not to mention it'll probably cost another 1500 to get that machine here...1500 for the 3phase mention and then I'm in 5k for a probably beat up machine that while it is built like a tank, will need a fair amount of reconditioning and certainly fine tuning to get working right for me. Some guys absolutely love the process of restoring machines or cars what have you....I do not....I used to....not any more lol. While I completely agree that that old Martin for instance might be a really substantial piece at a reasonable price...I would rather take the slightly lighter maybe more technologically advanced new machine that will not last quite as long but chances are long enough for me. Anyway, I digress.....

If anyone has specific experience with any of the saws I listed, by all means please let me know and thanks so much again to everyone.

[Kevin Jenness]

In an ideal world, I could find a great solid 8.5ft slider that has some nice features maybe even a digital readout on the fence and tilt (or a good retrofit) and comes in under 8k.
But does that exist?????? LOL

Newer than 2010? Maybe. Depends on your definition of "great" and "solid" plus patience and luck.

You might try asking on Woodweb for commercial users' experience with various saws, and keeping an eye on the machinery exchange there. There are several current listings under "panel saws - sliding".

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Sounds like his budget is right around $10k. First, and not to be a debbie downer, but perhaps a 4x4 CNC would be a better use of your capital? I dont know that a slider will make you better/faster at building guitars. If you still want a slider, $10k is a good budget for a used machine, and potentially insufficient for a new machine--just my opinion. For example, i probably would set the Felder 700 as my baseline machine(or the SCM equivalent). I dont follow new machine prices, but im pretty sure that a K700 is $13-15,000. I have definitely seen a handful of very new Felder 700's in the last year. Im talking like less than 6 months of use and the owner is reselling for one reason or another. That could be a great option for you. Otherwise, i would reconsider your 2010 date. Personally, i consider 2010 to be pretty recent. Heck, i was still in college in 2010.... I have a 2005 Felder KF700, and i think it would be a great ROI for you. You dont sound like you will be running this saw 6 hours a day for 5 days a week. I have a low patience threshold with machines, and i cant level many critiques at the Felder. The 5.5hp motor is adequate, the xroll table is fine, the crosscut fence and outrigger are right on the edge of being too flimsy for full sheets of 3/4, but they work fine. The rip fence is nothing to write home about, but its also not cheap. I think most professionals and craftspeople worth their salt would use my machine and come away satisfied, but not impressed by anything one feature. I might get stoned for saying this, but i would prefer the 2005 Felder to the 1970s Martin T75 i had. The Martin is so heavy and overbuilt, but it lacked the refinement and better designed sliding table/crosscut fence/outrigger of the Felder. Not that i know anything, but i do think sliders are better designed today than they were in the 70s and 80s. I tend to agree with the "older is better" sentiment, but not when it comes to sliders. I think you would be safe with anything from the late 90s or early 2000s. Altendorf, Martin, Kolle, SCM, etc all seemed to settle into hardened steel ways and bearing carriages similar to what is being used today. I believe the Felder Xroll fence from 2003-2004 is largely unchanged to this day, and the crosscut fence extrusion is similar/the same. I dont know the cost, but you can replace the steel ways and bearings on these tables and get another 50 years out of them. Ive looked at my ways on my Felder and they show 0 signs of wear. The Martin T75's cast iron ways had a 1/8"+ groove worn in them from 40-50 years of professional use. That is a design more prone to wear and extremely difficult to bring back to like-new condition, but even still the guy that bought my machine slapped an indicator with a mag base on it and the full stroke had .003-.005" of deviation. Thats a machine that is 50 years old, used in a pro setting, forklifted onto an open flatbed trailer, driven from Texas to Pennsylvania, forklifted off the trailer and up my driveway, and without any calibration. There's a lot to be said about heft and design build! Which brings me to my final long-winded point. I wouldnt buy the Hammer or k500. No offense to people that own them, i know plenty of great products come off of them, but i would take a 10 year old better built machine than a new hammer. And the 500 is the hammer in slightly better clothes. It has the xroll table and the rest is a hammer machine, i think.

Hi Patrick, thanks for the info, I never said I make guitars....just high end speaker cabinets....by all means you can see what I do at http://www.kwcabs.com The other thing is that I would say right now my work has shifted to about 70/30 sheet goods vs hardwoods....I've had a good amount of OEM work building mostly Baltic Birch Vinyl covered models for other amp builders on top of my usual stuff.

The one big concern I have with a slider is will in impact my ability to work with small material much? I know I can more or less still operate the saw as a typical cabinet saw if I so choose, but for instance when I want to make small 1/8" strips off the machine.....right now I have my INCRA fence and all I have to do is just advance the fence over 1/4" which is indexing to 1/32nd and can do 1/1000th if necessary and boom my strips slide off to the left of the blade....or if I want to take 1/32 off the width of a board I can just set up my rip fence and boom it's gone. I know there will be an adjustment period before I am quick and comfortable doing all of these sorts of operations on a slider, but I guess the question is has anyone run into situations of things that they cannot really do on their slider, but could do easily on their cabinet saw?

As for a CNC, I would love to have one, but right now I can't think of hardly anything outside of occasional jig making that I am doing that would really benefit from it. Maybe in the future, but probably not for a while.

[Jacques Gagnon]

Kurt,

I am still in the early stages of learning how to use a slider saw. I have recently built a very basic Fritz and Franz jig and ran a couple of test cuts, just for fun. I took a piece of wood that was 15mm long by 4mm wide and took a 0.5mm slice off the end. I could have cut an even thinner cut if need be. This was just to test the concept of working with very small items and removing minute amounts of wood all the while keeping full control of the workpiece and the fingers far away from the blade.

The understanding I have from reading from experienced users is that the type of thin slices you are talking about can be accomplished by means of a parallel (or two) guides. I will let those whose have actually worked with these provide their personal views.

Regards,

Jacques

[Kevin Jenness]

Repetitive ripping of thin strips is one task a slider is ideal for, like using a bacon slicer. Set the fence as a bump stop behind the blade, hold the workpiece between Fritz and Franz and go to town with your hands well away from the blade. Reducing the width exactly will be enhanced with a dro. Ripping just with the fence means leaning over the carriage which can be a bit awkward, and ripping small pieces that can't be held on the carriage works better with a shop made zero clearance insert. Otherwise, small pieces are not a problem, in fact if they can be held on the carriage it is generally safer than on a cabinet saw and you can usually devise a way to do that. If I had room for a cabinet saw and a slider it would be convenient, but given the choice I am way happier with a slider.