Buying a Slider....opinions/help

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hi all....I know this question has been asked many times from folks like me trying to buy a slider and looking for help to choose. I'm really looking for opinions from folks who have had real working experience or at least there hands on any of the machines mentioned and can offer their experience and the recent not old models (hence why the new post). I've looked around and read every website so I'm pretty familiar with the specs and the like. In addition to the models mentioned below I'd be more than happy to hear about any others I may not be familiar with and why. I've presented the list I have in question in 2 categories 8.5ft or longer and Short Stroke. I want to stay under 10k and I don't have an issue with a used machine, but my concern is that I am not very familiar with the units and likewise might end up spending more getting them up and running that they're worth, not to mention cannot afford the down time. In terms of used, I would really not want something prior to 2010 and likewise it seems most folks do around a 20 year cycle before changing unless it's a shop move etc. or have problems. I am also looking for a single phase machine, which I know limits some options (especially used) but I don't really want to go through getting 3 phase and a convertor will up my costs quite a bit. The one thing I find generally extremely frustrating is that many of these companies don't make it easy to find out pricing and likewise no one seems to talk about it online either.

Before I present the list, I'll mention a bit about my situation and use....thanks in advance!!

About Me

So I am a one man shop doing this for a living (at least a good part of it) for almost 20 years. I build primarily high end guitar and bass speaker cabinets mostly from hardwoods, but I do venture into furniture and other sorts of products and projects as well. Typically I am not building large case goods, however a good amount of my cabinet work comes in the form of builds for other companies and there's are almost always made from Baltic Birch Ply. So while occasionally I cut 4x8 sheets for certain projects the BB is typically 5x5 at most and I usually have 1 cut done at the mill to get it in the vehicle. So on the surface a short stroke slider is probably all I really need, but I like the idea of an 8.5 footer so that the capability is there whenever I need it. The downside is of course the price tag that is typically associated with the length. I do often buy 10ft lengths of hardwood but rarely ever need them that long and typically break them down to shorter boards on my RA saw and then do my ripping.

Shop

I am in a 2 level oversized 3 car with about 900 sqft on the first level and 300 on the top. I have been using a 3hp Jet cabinet saw with INCRA fence and Jessem router table built in for almost 20 years and am finally having an issue (another post regarding bearings) I feel that this is the perfect time to make the leap into something bigger and better and likewise slider is where I'm going. I like the Sawstop saws as cabinet saws but fully appreciate the sliders capabilities and likewise have removed it from consideration. Other machines in the shop....Hammer A341 JP, Jet 18" bandsaw, CP Radial Arm Saw, Laguna Mortiser, PC Omnijig, Drill Press etc. and just ordered a Hammer HS950 edge sander. I have the room to fit a 10ft slider, but only want to consider one that size if the value really makes sense...otherwise I would prefer an 8.5 or Short Stroke.

Brands

As you can see I have a Hammer and adding another one....overall I've been very happy with my machine, but I am not married to the brand at all at this point. I've managed to get good deals on the machines from them so far which has been the biggest deciding factor to getting them. There service has been 50-50 for me. Overall I think that most of this level machinery is priced too high, but these companies have figured out how to ride the coat tails of the their industrial level machines and have basically eliminated any sort of middle ground pricing for those trying to put good equipment in a one or two man shop or hobbyist and have made a considerable jump considering you can get a quality cabinet saw for around 3k compared to at least double to start this conversation.

Many of you will say go with the company that has the closest support and the best service. While I appreciate all of that I am in CT and as far as I know I don't have service from any of these companies particularly close (or at least not that I am aware of). Instead I want the most reliable machine that offers me the most machine for the money. I am not really interested in combo machines. If the need arises for a shaper in the future I'll probably just go with a stand alone.

The only machines I have ever had my hands on are....

Felder K700S with some options
Old Holz Her
Altendorf f45 - automated fence etc.

I actually like the feel of the Felder the most even though the AD is a much more expensive machine. It also felt great and felt extremely solid....the automation was of course cool but I actually feel like that level would slow me down. A digital readout with micro adjust would be every bit as good for me. Not to mention the f45 is in a totally different price category.

Wishlist

Good warranty (that's easy to deal with)
Digital readouts for fence and tilt (fine with an aftermarket for the fence readout....I'm just used to being able to dial in with the INCRA and it's going to be hard to lose that, my pieces need to be the same every time)
Really good overarm dust guard
Power switches on grip (I know typically only on higher priced)
Micro-adjust a must
Scoring unit
Really don't want less that 5HP

What I'm considering.....

Short Stroke

Hammer K3 Winner Comfort - Don't have a price yet, but feel like it's going to be high enough to not make sense

SCM - SC2C - Seems like good value, don't like the guard (don't know if better is optional)

Laguna - P12/5 - Seems loaded, but not cheap for it's size

Casadei - SC20 - Think I read that this is the same as the SCM, looks it, don't know the pricing compared to SCM thoughts????

8.5 or Bigger

Hammer K4 Perform - can't get firm pricing yet but have heard the difference to the 500 series is only about 1k which may or may not be worth it since you seem to have more options with the K4 standard and share a lot of the build but you don't have the X roll or the warranty

Felder K500 series - Like the warranty and the X roll - can't get firm pricing yet but might be more than I can do

SCM - SC3C or SC4E - Don't really know the difference - again guard not great, control layout not great

Maksiwa - BMS or BMT 3200 - full size, but seems like a lot of value - don't know the difference between the 2 models can't seem to find any except the price. 2 year warranty OK but not great. Service might be difficult in person but have read that phone support is good. Overall though very appealing.

Cantek - P305 - seems quite good but haven't heard a lot of opinions

Laguna P12/8 - would only do it on sale, above my budget

Casadei - SC30 or 40 - again don't know if there is anything different than the SCM models or the pricing

Altendorf - WA6 - can't find pricing on this but it seems like it could be under 10. I think the WA series is Chinese which raises flags for steel quality and the like, but have read a lot of good things regardless. I like the name of course, but wonder if that's all I'd be buying.

Robland - 300 series - seems like this is the only single phase they offer and it's only 3hp....anyone know if they offer bigger? Looks great, but have read mixed reviews on performance.

ASIAN - Lastly I would consider one of the import models that are priced incredibly under 3k in many cases. I have read some of the success and horror stories here, so would only go with something that someone had first hand great experience with. Any thoughts are appreciated.

OK Guys, I know it was a long read and I thank you so much for any advice and suggestions. I am sure there are a lot of other things to get into here but hopefully this gets the conversation going in the right direction as I'm sure there are a lot of you in a similar boat.

One last question, are there any relationships with any of these companies for SMC members? Any discounts? Any reps on here that can help?

Thanks!!!

[Pat Rice]

Wow Kurt, a lot of questions. Erik Loza is a Sawmill member with lots of experience and is currently a Felder Rep and in the past sold SCM. I am a hobbyist woodworker who in the last several year converted from 20 yrs of using cabinet saws with Incra fences to the slider world. I really liked using the Incra fence for it’s repeatability and precision and when I purchased my first slider a K500 Pro from Felder, I really missed my Incra fence but totally loved using the slider and crosscut fence. It is a different way of working and it took a little bit to adapt to working on a slider but I would never want to go back to a cabinet saw. Erik gave me some great advice on Hammer vs K500 in that the K500 series has the X-Roll sliding table which I think is a worth while upgrade. Having never seen a slider in person much less used one and being a little shocked at pricing I went with the K500 Pro with 80” fence and all analog fence and stops. It was a good saw but ultimately didn’t meet the my wants/needs. Specifically I quickly found out I wanted a longer slider to allow me to rip 8’ sheet goods and then there was the love of Incra fence repeatability that was missing. Long story short I decided life is too short and I am getting older so now was the time to bite the bullet and I upgraded to a much higher end Felder (Kappa 400 X-Motion) with digital cross stops and automatic rip fence with digital control panel and longer slider, this is probably my last saw and I didn’t want any regrets. I am totally pleased with this slider and it’s precision and the ease of repeatability. This machine is not in your mentioned price range and rarely available used but would be worth looking for. The K700 series also now has similar digital options. Good luck on your journey into sliders.

[Paul J Kelly]

Great post!

In regard to new Felder or Hammer. The single phase option is 3kw-4hp. Older Felder's had single phase above that 4hp mark would violate your 2010 date for used machines.

I had a short stroke Laguna TSS for 15 years. I moved to a 3200mm slider. If you can fit that, it opens up capacities to use clamps with hard wood and sheet goods. An 8.5ft slider will handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood, but there is not space left for clamping the piece while you cut. Last year I found a Format 4 kappa 400 x-motion used in a nice shop for a fraction of new. It is 10hp 3 phase, so I had another $3k for a Phase Perfect 10hp model. It is a dream machine and if you find a deal like that - do it! I fit it in a 20x20 shop!

I have nothing against the brands you are talking about. I have no experience with Maksiwa beyond the videos on YouTube. I am not sure if you can find the Altendorf WA6 easily in the US.

SCM's are great machines also. The pricing for new can be steep with SCM that have the digital functions.

If you are looking for more insight on Hammer/Felder - get on the Felders Owners Group - the FOG.

PK

[Jim Becker]

I'm a slider fan and will have one again in the new shop building once it's up...I miss it dearly. I'm in the SCM/Minimax camp (SC3C most likely), although when I buy, a Hammer will also get compared and considered. The major difference between the SC3C and the SC4C is the wagon length; the former is "medium" short stroke and the latter is 8'6" wagon and a little heavier. The next step up is the S315 which is the 10' wagon.

I think you really need to narrow down the format you want to support what you want to do with it. Short strokes are great, but if you want to work with longer things, they obviously are not going to be the best choice. There are too many on your current list....

So narrow down what your actual cutting requirements are going to be.

[Kevin Jenness]

What is your budget?

I don't have experience with the specific saws you mention but I have used sliders for over 20 years, specifically a short stroke SCM Si12, Griggio SC3000, two Martin T72s, (all from the mid-80's) a new Martin T60C and the saw I use daily, a 20 year old Paoloni P260.

I understand your desire for a new saw with warranty and single phase electrics but I can say that a well designed industrial grade saw that hasn't been abused will function reliably for a long time in a one man shop and be a better value even with a phase converter added in than a new consumer grade saw. Martins in particular are made to cut accurately and standup to continuous hard use for decades. if you look around you can find non-digital full size saws in good shape for under $10k, and any kinks will have been uncovered in use (although it would be up to you to suss them out).

I see a lot of problems with new machines and customer service posted here. If there are any problems with a new machine even if you get faulty parts replaced you will be responsible for installing them and calibrating the saw or paying a factory tech to do it for you. If you buy new, make sure you get those warranty and service terms clearly spelled out in advance.

The Paoloni is not a great saw, it's light and a little crude in spots but it is accurate and combines an 8.5' stroke and room for clamps fore and aft of an 8' sheet with a narrow extension table so it fits in the confines of my shop. I have about $4k in it including shipping and a 10 hp phase converter. I don't have a dro on the fence, just a magnetic back dial indicator, but you could easily retrofit one. Whatever you get, look closely at the overall footprint, carriage travel and table length. I find the 8.5' stroke very useful for straightlining solid wood as well as sheet goods, and more is better if you have room. Clamps, a double miter gauge and Fritz and Franz are extremely useful accessories and easily made if you are thrifty.

Good luck with whatever you get. I'm sure it will make a big difference in your work.

[Richard Coers]

With the limited amount of sheet goods you run, I would not recommend a slider. Dedicating a 17' slot in your small shop will really eat up the space. I've owned a Griggio and MiniMax combination machine.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I'll simply say, recent purchase of an SCM minimax si315es has me thoroughly impressed. Haven't touched my old Jet supersaw OR miter saw in the weeks since receiving it. Love, love, love that slider. Very little ply processing, as I've got cnc, but still, quick breakdown and trimming of plys is faster than winding up the cnc. Even better than I'd hoped.
Background: 15 year full time cab/furniture designer/builder.
Why did I choose it?
- European made
- Availability was good - only an 8 week wait - tried to stick with Felder, but they needed 8-9 months
- Salesman in my state, who connected me with Sam Blasco for questions prior to purchase, and after receiving the machine.
Looked at the 6,8 and 10' sliders in this series. Was able to fit the 10, and am super glad it worked out.
Pricing roughly a grand per foot on the slider lengths.

jeff

[Patrick Kane]

Sounds like his budget is right around $10k. First, and not to be a debbie downer, but perhaps a 4x4 CNC would be a better use of your capital? I dont know that a slider will make you better/faster at building guitars. If you still want a slider, $10k is a good budget for a used machine, and potentially insufficient for a new machine--just my opinion. For example, i probably would set the Felder 700 as my baseline machine(or the SCM equivalent). I dont follow new machine prices, but im pretty sure that a K700 is $13-15,000. I have definitely seen a handful of very new Felder 700's in the last year. Im talking like less than 6 months of use and the owner is reselling for one reason or another. That could be a great option for you. Otherwise, i would reconsider your 2010 date. Personally, i consider 2010 to be pretty recent. Heck, i was still in college in 2010.... I have a 2005 Felder KF700, and i think it would be a great ROI for you. You dont sound like you will be running this saw 6 hours a day for 5 days a week. I have a low patience threshold with machines, and i cant level many critiques at the Felder. The 5.5hp motor is adequate, the xroll table is fine, the crosscut fence and outrigger are right on the edge of being too flimsy for full sheets of 3/4, but they work fine. The rip fence is nothing to write home about, but its also not cheap. I think most professionals and craftspeople worth their salt would use my machine and come away satisfied, but not impressed by anything one feature. I might get stoned for saying this, but i would prefer the 2005 Felder to the 1970s Martin T75 i had. The Martin is so heavy and overbuilt, but it lacked the refinement and better designed sliding table/crosscut fence/outrigger of the Felder. Not that i know anything, but i do think sliders are better designed today than they were in the 70s and 80s. I tend to agree with the "older is better" sentiment, but not when it comes to sliders. I think you would be safe with anything from the late 90s or early 2000s. Altendorf, Martin, Kolle, SCM, etc all seemed to settle into hardened steel ways and bearing carriages similar to what is being used today. I believe the Felder Xroll fence from 2003-2004 is largely unchanged to this day, and the crosscut fence extrusion is similar/the same. I dont know the cost, but you can replace the steel ways and bearings on these tables and get another 50 years out of them. Ive looked at my ways on my Felder and they show 0 signs of wear. The Martin T75's cast iron ways had a 1/8"+ groove worn in them from 40-50 years of professional use. That is a design more prone to wear and extremely difficult to bring back to like-new condition, but even still the guy that bought my machine slapped an indicator with a mag base on it and the full stroke had .003-.005" of deviation. Thats a machine that is 50 years old, used in a pro setting, forklifted onto an open flatbed trailer, driven from Texas to Pennsylvania, forklifted off the trailer and up my driveway, and without any calibration. There's a lot to be said about heft and design build! Which brings me to my final long-winded point. I wouldnt buy the Hammer or k500. No offense to people that own them, i know plenty of great products come off of them, but i would take a 10 year old better built machine than a new hammer. And the 500 is the hammer in slightly better clothes. It has the xroll table and the rest is a hammer machine, i think.

[Steve Jenkins]

I’ve an Altendorf 10’ F-45 that I bought new in 1992. Still works great. Has digital readout on the manual fence and tilt. Wouldn’t want to do without either. Only thing I don’t care for is the Blade raise and lower is a hydraulic foot pedal. Its only a slight problem when trying to set a precise blade height like for dados.

[Kevin Jenness]

With the limited amount of sheet goods you run, I would not recommend a slider.

I disagree. Even using solely solid wood I would rather have a sliding table saw. Since the op often uses 5 x 5 baltic birch panels it would make sense to get a slider with at least a 5' stroke.

[Kevin Jenness]

i do think sliders are better designed today than they were in the 70s and 80s.

That depends. The old Martin T75s are tanks, but the T72s and onward from the early 80s have quite nice fences and they are almost impossible to knock out of square. The carriage, the heart of the saw, is basically the same today as it was 40 years ago and not that much different from the T75 - if kept lubricated they are quite durable. The main improvements I see on the T60C over the 40 year old T72s are dros on the rip fence and blade height, operator side adjustment and lock on the rip fence (exclusive to Martin as far as I know and a huge improvement over walking around the beam), micro adjustment on the crosscut stops and continuous position carriage locking. I actually prefer the hydraulic blade controls over electronic; they'll never crap out from a power surge.

[Jim Becker]

With the limited amount of sheet goods you run, I would not recommend a slider. Dedicating a 17' slot in your small shop will really eat up the space. I've owned a Griggio and MiniMax combination machine.

I also disagree. I work primarily with solid stock and I'm really missing not having the slider right now with my temporary shop. I've really hated going back to a cabinet saw, even temporarily.

[Rich Riddle]

I purchased the Hamme K3 Winner at least five years ago. It has a 48" or 49" slide on it and works great. It took a while to adjust after all the years with a Unisaw, but now it's like second nature. No regrets in the least.

[Steve Jenkins]

That depends. I actually prefer the hydraulic blade controls over electronic; they'll never crap out from a power surge.

I was thinking hand wheel not electronics

[Kevin Jenness]

I was thinking hand wheel not electronics

For some time Martin had a pedal operated hydraulic pump that raised, lowered and tilted the arbor. They pump had two modes, with a small step the blade would move in very small increments. For really precise angular and vertical positioning it was a little more cumbersome than a handwheel, but our saw was used almost solely for through cutting - we had a couple of cabinet saws available for grooving. The thing I liked was you could dump the blade below the table in a second or raise it into a stopped cut hands free, and like handwheels it didn't rely on a proprietary circuit board. I like dros but electronic positioners not so much.