Continental Bow-saws (for joinery / general work): What Woods Were Used Historically?

[Luke Dupont]

As I needed a few more saws with different tooth profiles, I thought I would make a general purpose continental style bowsaw -- not a turning saw, but one with a blade that does turn, meant more for joinery, ripping, and crosscutting, but capable of performing many tasks.

I've got a prototype / temporary saw just made out of pine, and using a bandsaw blade, which turns on bolts with a slot and pin holes cut out. I'd like to make a nicer one soon, though.

For the blade, I've made bowsaw blades before using thin spring steel sheet. The most challenging thing is simply finding where to buy appropriately thicknessed, tempered spring-steel. But for now, my question is on the frame:

In the past, I made a one from Red Oak, but that one was a bit heavy and unwieldy.

What woods were generally used to make framed saws for joinery and general work across continental Europe? It seems to me that, though heavier hard woods like Beech were generally used for most tools, lighter woods would be preferable for such large saws, particularly those with turning blades that are often held at an angle to the cut. Am I wrong though? Were most continental bowsaws made from heavier woods?

I'm curious if anyone knows what was the convention Historically, or has examined enough antique saws to know. I've never actually held an antique example, so I can only guess how they're supposed to feel in the hand.

[Luke Dupont]

Doing a bit more research, I found a discussion in which it was mentioned that light-weight woods such as spruce were often used for the stretcher, and harder woods for the body.
Maybe I'll use pine or some other softwood for the stretcher, and some Ash or Walnut that I have for the vertical pieces and handles...

[Jason Buresh]

https://www.fine-tools.com/gestell.html

ECE still makes and sells this style of saw. It says red beech for the arms and limewood for a stretcher. Gramercy also makes a bow say from hickory, which would be much easier to source

[Jack Dover]

Mine are beech for uprights and hands and basswood for stretchers, all these saws were made in Germany. I have one saw from Denmark (I think), it uses spruce for a stretcher.

I've never seen a frame saw made from other materials, although any hardwood that's stiff enough would work. I think that beech is used because it dominates the forests there, not because it has some physical properties.

[Mike Allen1010]

If you’re using your bow saws primarily for joinery, no need to rotate the blade relative to the handles. Simply the depth of cut governed by the stretcher should allow for most joinery. This makes total weight of the saw less relevant.

For what it’s worth, I made and used number of bow saws for joinery, sourcing the blades from German firm. They worked well ( especially for dovetails in very thick stock, like timber framing), but ultimately most furniture/realistic scale work I found traditional backed, joinery size were easier/more accurate to use.

Cheers, Mike

[Luke Dupont]

If you’re using your bow saws primarily for joinery, no need to rotate the blade relative to the handles. Simply the depth of cut governed by the stretcher should allow for most joinery. This makes total weight of the saw less relevant.

For what it’s worth, I made and used number of bow saws for joinery, sourcing the blades from German firm. They worked well ( especially for dovetails in very thick stock, like timber framing), but ultimately most furniture/realistic scale work I found traditional backed, joinery size were easier/more accurate to use.

Cheers, Mike

Actually, I already have joinery saws -- both a nice western tenon saw, and a Japanese Douzuki. Ryoba are great for tenons and joinery as well.

What I needed, and why I'm making bow saws, is because I don't have any panel saws capable of breaking down large stock.

I tried ripping some 4/4 Ash/Tamo with a few Ryoba that I have, and they just weren't cutting it -- pun intended. So I knocked up a quick and dirty frame saw using pine and a bandsaw blade and some bolts to allow it to turn, ala Chinese frame saws, and the speed and efficiency of that thing is impressive. It's really like a mini, hand-held bandsaw.

So, basically, I'm most interested in them for ripping and crosscutting. I used one that I made in the past to that effect and it worked great. But also they're wonderfully versatile in that you can just pop in a different blade, and get a different saw. I'll likely make coarse and fine blades for both rip and crosscut, and also get a 1/4" bandsaw blade for turning. And if I feel like it, I'll make a peg-toothed crosscut saw for bucking wood when I'm camping/bushcrafting. The blades can then be swapped out between different frames for different jobs; ie, the bucksaw or joinery saws (if I use them for joinery, which I surely will on occasion just for fun) don't need a rotating blade, etc.

This is much more economical and actually space efficient for me, compared to trying to buy vintage panel saws and pay exorbitant shipping to Japan for each and every one, and the blades themselves hardly take up any space, so I can have many blades and just a few frames to pop them in/out of as I need. Though, I do love western panel saws.

[Tony Wilkins]

Out of curiosity, what size ryoba were you using? My 300mm is a beast when it comes to breaking down stock.

[Luke Dupont]

Out of curiosity, what size ryoba were you using? My 300mm is a beast when it comes to breaking down stock.

Is that measured from the handle, or just the teeth?

From the handle, my Ryoba measures 260mm. The teeth themselves are about 210mm.

I've used many different Ryoba, and love them. But I do find that the teeth are generally better suited for softwoods than hardwoods, and they're difficult to do long rips with. Teeth that cut on the push stroke and have less acute rake are much easier for ripping I find, and cause less vibration as well (because if you are cutting with the board below you, the teeth are going with the grain on the push stroke as opposed to against, and the work is supported by the bench or saw horse as opposed to being lifted up and away from it).

The kerf on the back of the Ryoba can also be problematic for long rip cuts, especially as the set wears on one side more than. You're still contending with more binding and interference regardless though.

The wide blade on Ryoba are absolutely wonderful for accurate cuts though. I love using them for joinery for that reason.

Bow saws are challenging to rip with for some people, but I think that is primarily due to two things:
1. Blades that are too wide. If you look at vintage saws, tons of them have blades that are no more than 5/8" or 3/4". This allows you to make minor adjustments in a long rip cut.
2. Handles that are too lose and turn of their own accord, making it impossible to correct the saw in a deep/long cut. Combined with a wide blade that exacts more leverage on already loose handles, the problem of the blade turning freely is enhanced even more.

Of course, wide blades are great for joinery, though.

[Tony Wilkins]

Think it’s just the blade but I’m not completely certain. I’ve heard the softwood v hardwood but haven’t noticed it but I mostly use walnut and cherry.

[Luke Dupont]

Think it’s just the blade but I’m not completely certain. I’ve heard the softwood v hardwood but haven’t noticed it but I mostly use walnut and cherry.

Hmm, it could definitely be that there are better Ryoba out there that are more suited to hardwoods. The ones I'm using are not terribly expensive, and may be a bit thicker than necessary.

[Jack Dover]

but ultimately most furniture/realistic scale work I found traditional backed, joinery size were easier/more accurate to use.

A traditional continental tool set contains a back saw specifically for critical joinery like dovetails or tenon shoulders, usually a gent's saw, a misleading name really. A frame saw would be used for tenons or less critical parts that aren't visible. A frame saw is a medium to coarse tool, and most blades provided today aren't as fine as backsaws. Maybe a custom blade could be made to order, I'm still entertaining this idea.

Another interesting thing is that during XX century an offset back saw was the norm, at least in the Northern parts of Europe. I've lost mine and can't find a good one. Crown Tools still manufacture one, but they threat it as a trimming saw, so it's filed cross-cut and it seems they have some manufacturing issues: there was a bow in the spine, I've sent for a replacement, a replacement came in bowed too.

[Jack Dover]

I tried ripping some 4/4 Ash/Tamo with a few Ryoba that I have, and they just weren't cutting it -- pun intended.

Yeah, that's to be expected. Ryoba is a joinery saw and it has a limitation on the length of cut: once the other side teeth are getting into a kerf - you're done. Also, your ryoba might be for small scale work, they differ in size and aggressiveness.

For breaking down medium sized boards a kataba is used. But for the 4/4 you really want a maebiki, which will do a quick job of your timber, but you will depend on a saw smith for setup, sharpening and maintenance. They're very, very special beasts.

EDIT: apparently I can't read. For 4/4 a kataba is okay, I was thinking about 8/4 or thicker while typing.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

After watching a video of Peter Sellers build a simple bow saw I have always wanted to build one myself just because it would be cool / fun to do. If you have time please document the process and post here. Interested in the wood you use, the style, the hardware, etc.

[Jack Dover]

From the handle, my Ryoba measures 260mm. The teeth themselves are about 210mm.

Yeah, that's a small scale joinery saw.

I've used many different Ryoba, and love them. But I do find that the teeth are generally better suited for softwoods than hardwoods, and they're difficult to do long rips with.

It's because all mass-manufactured disposable blades are assumed for softwoods. There are saws specifically for Western hardwoods, they're forged by a smith and the price can be mistaken for a a price of Boeing 747. They're also not for a beginner, people snap them in half all the time.

I find, and cause less vibration as well

Pretty sure this is your technique. Most people that learned the craft themselves use wrong technique and others copy it. If you put your piece in vises upright and start sawing down at 90˚ - not only it will vibrate like crazy, you are also risking of breaking some teeth off. Same applies to cross-cutting flat on a workbench. What's funny is the proper technique is described in excruciating details everywhere including the packaging a saw came in. Yet people just ignore it. It's not a stab at you personally, just an observation.

1. Blades that are too wide. If you look at vintage saws, tons of them have blades that are no more than 5/8" or 3/4". This allows you to make minor adjustments in a long rip cut.

These are just worn blades. Or some special purpose blades, like firewood cutting, bucking or scroll cutting. A joinery blade starts its life 40mm wide, 12-15 tpi, a ripping blade was 35mm, 8-10tpi. Or at least they used to, afaik none of the modern day suppliers offer such blades.

2. Handles that are too lose and turn of their own accord, making it impossible to correct the saw in a deep/long cut.

Again, just a worn down saw. The tenons are supposed to be conical, they lock down dead once a string is tightened. Over years of adjustment and turning these tenons wear down - friction, blade holders reaming, etc. Also there were supposed to be thick leather washers, esp. on later models where tenons were straight (for no good reason). Leather hardens over years and crumbles away. There used to be repair sets sold separately: two handles with slightly thicker tenons, 4 leather washers and a new string. I guess today the first thing in restoration should be turning new handles at least.

Another issue is the stretcher. It compresses over years, can be worn down so much you can't tighten it at all. It was also assumed to be disposable and bridle style joint was preferable. I like a stretcher with through mortises because it's easier to replace: just rip a length of a 4/4 board and drill out two mortises.

And, by the way, you are not supposed to correct the saw in a long cut (or any other cut), the expectation is that you must just saw straight. The explanation was that it takes too much time to correct a wavy cut, therefore it was even a part of examination. No idea whether it's true about the exam, never did it and at that time ripping was already done by a machine.

[Jack Dover]

After watching a video of Peter Sellers build a simple bow saw

He has actually build a buck saw, a type used for felling trees, just scaled down. The issue is the fixed blade: kerfs in the uprights must be absolutely co-planar and in one plane, also the uprights might be absolutely in the same plane. That's not always possible even with the machine, given it is wood under tension. I'm pretty sure there's a minutiae twist in a blade and with no possibility to compensate it will at least have a wide kerf and ragged entry and exit arrises. Afaik Paul never used that saw as a daily tool after the build. Also that hand protector, omg, I wonder where that came from.

If you really want to build a continental frame saw I recommend Isaac Smith's (of Blackburn Tools) video. He also offers a blade way better than a metal bandsaw blade.