Advice on sagging Jointer table (MM FS41ES)

[Brian Holcombe]

You are correct, I am describing the infeed/outfeed not being co-planer.

I ordered a 72" Starrett strait edge as suggested which should help. I also did some test cuts on pine instead of my project material, white oak. I was able to get perfectly jointed wood with the pine, both face and edge jointing. I recently switched to applying pressure to the outfeed table only after passing the knifes as I've seen recommended in a number of technique videos. When I tried this with the pine, I ended up with a bow in the wood I couldnt joint away, it just got worse. When I switched to an equal pressure technique I got perfectly flat wood. I also saw some videos that said only apply pressure to the infeed table.

Perhaps my strait edge is just off enough because I'm registering such a small portion of the outfeed that I was getting those results. No way to tell.

I'll wait for the 72" strait edge to come in, and try to run some more tests. If I can get a strait piece of pine though, 3' and less than .001 deviation, WOULD that seem to that things are co-planer? In other worse, if things were out of plane, would I still be able to get that short piece of pine flat on one face?

Hopefully they send you a decent one, I ordered one a few years ago and it was curved. The better style of straight edge, at this length is a cast iron camel back that’s been scraped flat or to a lesser degree, precision ground.

These tools start to get really heavy when they start getting over 4-5’, so I prefer to check the table and use level to verify accuracy.

This is a progressive adjustment, so you can take small steps as to avoid any real disaster.

I would bet the bolts came out of adjustment on the ride and you’ll be able to get it dialed back in without much effort.

[Phil Gaudio]

Not familiar with the FS41ES, but I did this same adjustment for and FS41E. If they are similar, there will be two mounting points on the hinge side where shims are used at the factory for the adjustment. As I recall, it involved loosening the two main bolts that hold the hinge assembly in place. Once these are loose: you can add/subtract shims as needed to get things in line. But, its important, as everyone else has said, that before you start adjusting things, you are confident in the veracity of the straight edge (I broke down and bought the 72" Starrett) and your ability to use it. This straight edge will sag under its own weight so it has to be supported at the support points indicated on the side of the straight edge. When I was doing the adjustment, I did a map of the entire infeed: and took measurements maybe every 8" of infeed length along 3 different lines of travel: near back, near front, and in middle. I made these measurements a number of times until I had a good sense of what was going on. Once you are confident that you know exactly what is wrong, only then would I loosen those bolts and start adjusting. Once you make an adjustment, there is no going back, so to speak. I am not aware of any instructions to make this adjustment: when you spend this kind of $$$ I think the manufacturer assumes that you have a full time machinist on staff to handle these issues: the travails of the hobbyist woodworker.

[derek labian]

Speaking of that, this Oneway Multi Gauge (made in Canada) is becoming one of my most frequently used setup tools.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/oneway-multi-gauge

Thanks Charles. I have a dial indicator, I just need to buy a different base.

[derek labian]

One thing I remember about the Elite-S J/P's is that most of them really needed true re-calibration after final delivery. The cast iron tables are so long on that particular machine that I suspect they shift around quite a bit during transport. If you look at that cast iron tables from the underneath, the ratio of "table hanging out in space" compared to quadrant that the parallelogram rods occupy/can adjust is much more skewed than most machines of similar class. Not necessarily a bad thing but I would expect a full commissioning to be required on a machine with tables that size. Hope you get it sorted out.

Erik

Thanks for the tip. I took a look and your right, the rods are 12"~ apart, so not very far. I'm going to wait for that better+longer strait edge before I change anything.

[Charles Coolidge]

Thanks Charles. I have a dial indicator, I just need to buy a different base.

Perfect, because the multi gauge comes with a CHINA indicator. I throw my Mitutoyo indicator on there when it matters. Though the CHINA indicator has a nice wide flat tip that's useful, the threads are the same as my Mitutoyo so I can swap it over.

[derek labian]

Hopefully they send you a decent one, I ordered one a few years ago and it was curved. The better style of straight edge, at this length is a cast iron camel back that’s been scraped flat or to a lesser degree, precision ground. These tools start to get really heavy when they start getting over 4-5’, so I prefer to check the table and use level to verify accuracy.

Thats why I originally didn't buy a Starrett strait edge, I had read the quality went down, people weren't getting strait edges. The problem though is, if I get it, and its my reference, how will I know if its not strait :P I'd have to buy two, and put them back to back to see if they are perfect. What do you mean "use a level" to verify accuracy?

This is a progressive adjustment, so you can take small steps as to avoid any real disaster.

I would bet the bolts came out of adjustment on the ride and you’ll be able to get it dialed back in without much effort.

Thats what Erik was saying as well. I guess I'll see when I get the strait edge.

[Charles Coolidge]

Thats why I originally didn't buy a Starrett strait edge, I had read the quality went down

I have never had a quality issue with USA made Starrett rules but yeah at 72 inches things could get dicey. First thing I did when the 48 inch arrived was slide my satin chrome 24" Starrett rule down it's length, looks dead on flat.

[Kevin Jenness]

One thing I remember about the Elite-S J/P's is that most of them really needed true re-calibration after final delivery. The cast iron tables are so long on that particular machine that I suspect they shift around quite a bit during transport. If you look at that cast iron tables from the underneath, the ratio of "table hanging out in space" compared to quadrant that the parallelogram rods occupy/can adjust is much more skewed than most machines of similar class. Not necessarily a bad thing but I would expect a full commissioning to be required on a machine with tables that size. Hope you get it sorted out.

Erik

From an old thread on customer service https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....stomer-service
Erik Loza
Felder Rep

Join DateApr 2012LocationAustin, TXPosts3,762

Alan, I've worked for two of the players you mentioned and will give you my thoughts.

First, you need to clarify which machines we are talking about. Any Martin, machine, for example, will automatically include a tech to set it up. You can't set up one of those yourself. This would be the case for any machine, regardless of brand, that has electronics. You would not have to deal with most of your concerns because part of the price you pay will include dealer install, service, and support. Now, regarding Minimax (and some SCM) as well as some of those other brands, the price you pay generally DOES NOT include setup or install, unless you specifically pay for that service. For example, most owners will never need a tech to set up or even to service a bandsaw. It's a simple machine that does not warrant that level of mfr. support. Here are how I personally handle the specific issues you are asking about:

1.) "The problem is so bad that the machine needs to be replaced". This is very rare but does happen and is almost always the result of freight damage. Minor freight damage, ordinarily I will direct SCM's parts department to ship out the needed parts and the customer can just re-fit them, himself. The only time I would replace an entire machine is if the damage was catastrophic or if there were some issue that just made more sense from a monetary perspective, to have the customer put the machine back on the pallet and have me ship him a new one. But that is very rare.

2.) The problem is something that can be "fixed" over the phone by talking to a technician and learning what to do. This is the most common scenario and that is exactly what how I handle it. In the vast majority of cases, this is all that is needed. It is assumed that the owner will have a willingness to roll his sleeves up and help solve the issue.

3.) The problem needs an onsite visit from a factory trained technician. Again, very rare. The more complicated the machine, the higher the chance and it almost always is the electronics.

The labor rate you mentioned for travel is fair and is normal in the industry. I will be the first to say that the one area any of the mfrs. could benefit from is more tech support staff. That is an industry-wide situation. You can never have enough techs or service guys.

The best advice I can give you (or anyone) who is buying Euro machinery is that you need to be willing to do some work on your end and be prepared to act outside your comfort zone. Be that wrangling machines from the curbside to your shop, troubleshooting electrics yourself, being persistent on the phone with tech support, or perhaps paying to have the tech handle it all for you. This is industrial machinery, not shoes from Zappos. Once that truck shows up, it's yours. The only customers customers I've ever had that were totally dissatisfied (and there aren't many) were ones who, the moment something went askew of their plans, took the approach of, "I paid THIS much, so shouldn't have to lift a finger", or started issuing threats and ultimatums right off the bat. That's setting yourself up for unhappiness. In other words, you will need to be involved at possibly a number of different levels if an issue does come up.

This is blunt talk but I hope it helps. Best of luck with your research.

Erik

Derek, I'm just curious if commissioning was recommended when you ordered this machine. It sounds as though you expected it to be plug and play. I assume that anything short of a Martin is going to be a kit and have no qualms about making adjustments, but I have been tweaking used machinery for some time. It seems as though anyone buying a new machine like this should budget for either having a tech set it up or taking the time and having the equipment to do it themself.

[derek labian]

Derek, I'm just curious if commissioning was recommended when you ordered this machine. It sounds as though you expected it to be plug and play. I assume that anything short of a Martin is going to be a kit and have no qualms about making adjustments, but I have been tweaking used machinery for some time. It seems as though anyone buying a new machine like this should budget for either having a tech set it up or taking the time and having the equipment to do it themself.

Commissioning was not discussed that I can remember. I did expect it to come in perfect order; if my Grizzly equipment came and needed little to no adjustment, I assumed this would be the same. Since I don't depend on this for income, its not a big deal to wait, I was just mid-project when I realized I wasn't getting strait wood. If it was an income thing, it could be more problematic.

I don't have any issue making adjustments, I am just surprised there's nothing in the manual about making those adjustments. To be fair, there is info about the cutter head, just not about the tables. My general lack of experience compounds the issue, more experienced woodworkers would probably be equipped to deal with any issuer better. In any event, I'm sure this too shall pass and get resolved. I can see the value in manufacturer setup though.

[Erik Loza]

I think there are two different conversations going on here. One is telling someone how to adjust a jointer outfeed table and the other is specific to the OP's machine. In my opinion, the focus should be on the second question. I don't sense that the OP is not understanding how make these adjustments. The OP's machine, due to its particular design, really needs an experienced tech to set it up. Other MM J/P's, like Phil's, have a more simple design. As Kevin mentioned, it's going to be a LOT of creeping up on and then re-checking.

Derek, could you pay Sam to come out and dial it in for you? He (as you probably know) has that exact machine in his CU410 and is not far from you. Again, I hope you get it sorted out.

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=derek labian;3168927]I thought I was being clear, but sometimes its hard to read what your writing and set aside your inherit understanding of the situation.



"The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives."

Didn’t see source of above quote, but I don’t think it’s good. The knives have to be right. The outfeed usually has to be adjusted a number
of times before the knives changed out. Even a real-small nick can make for trouble . When facing wide stuff, that nick is going to make the work “climb” ,so you have to lower outfeed . And on same project you might have to raise outfeed to make “sprung” joints. I’ve worked
a couple places where a good designer would come out of his air conditioning to joint the edge of a piece of plywood for a bird house !
Guys who are smart in one type of work ….are dumb-bells in a bunch of other stuff.
Well now I see the source, and he is a smart guy. Good writers need editors….but Keith won’t buy us any !!! The nature of forums
is constant examination. And…to our credit no one has been stabbed in this one !

[derek labian]

I think there are two different conversations going on here. One is telling someone how to adjust a jointer outfeed table and the other is specific to the OP's machine. In my opinion, the focus should be on the second question.

Right

Derek, could you pay Sam to come out and dial it in for you? He (as you probably know) has that exact machine in his CU410 and is not far from you. Again, I hope you get it sorted out.

Maybe. Since some fair points were raised about the accuracy of my test, I'm going to at least get that 72" Starrett and see what I can see. Good idea though.

[derek labian]

[QUOTE=Mel Fulks;3169160]

I thought I was being clear, but sometimes its hard to read what your writing and set aside your inherit understanding of the situation.



"The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives."

Didn’t see source of above quote, but I don’t think it’s good. The knives have to be right. The outfeed usually has to be adjusted a number
of times before the knives changed out. Even a real-small nick can make for trouble . When facing wide stuff, that nick is going to make the work “climb” ,so you have to lower outfeed . And on same project you might have to raise outfeed to make “sprung” joints. I’ve worked
a couple places where a good designer would come out of his air conditioning to joint the edge of a piece of plywood for a bird house !
Guys who are smart in one type of work ….are dumb-bells in a bunch of other stuff.

Just for reference, its a spiral head not strait knives.

From everything I've read, the knives should be at the exact same height as the outfeed table. If its a bit over, thats ok too (.003), if its a bit under (.001) its a problem. As far as I can tell its at level. I've ordered Brian's indicator holder so I can better test.

Its also possible, as Erik suggested, there are multiple things that need to be tweaked. I probably need to see how accurate the planer bed digital readout is now too.

[Mel Fulks]

I’ve never used a spiral jointer. Too high outfeed makes the work climb ,that is ….take off more wood at start than other end.

On long pieces it all has to be right.

[Erik Loza]

Derek, is your shop climate controlled at this point? There's a particular reason I'm asking this question.

Erik