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Thread: Advice on sagging Jointer table (MM FS41ES)

  1. Quote Originally Posted by derek labian View Post
    Right. For reference, I was following the procedure indicated by Marc Spagnola's video. It seemed like a reasonable procedure and I think the test results are inline. I was actually already looking at the Starrett 72" strait edge (https://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...-detail/380-72) but that isn't going to help me today and I have a time sensitive project.

    https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/jointer-setup/



    42"

    You Don't by chance have a Starrett No 199 precision machinist level on hand do you? That's accurate enough to level the outfeed then throw the level on the infeed to check for variance vs the outfeed. Just throwing out an idea.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    Start with checking/adjusting the outfeed table height. The most common cause of convex joints is the outfeed table being too high. It should be even with or just a hair lower than the knives. This is a very fine adjustment and a dial indicator is useful here.
    I checked this several more times with a couple of tools, the outfeed table is setup correctly.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Roltgen View Post
    Agree with Glenn. A quick call to minimax/SCM. They'll call back and spend as much time as necessary to help you set things straight.
    As for factory alignment, just set up a new MM sliding table saw last week. They said alignment of wagon toe registration pins was pre-set at factory. Not remotely close. Plus, sled was sitting at least .057" above iron table, when .007 is recommended. Even the switch plate had been installed with wires pinched between gasket and housing, creating a bulging control panel that initially was blamed on shipping. Finally, had 3 threaded inserts in various covers that did not crimp well, result being they spun along with the screw. Two of which had locked up screws that needed to be cut off before I could open things up to get the machine in service.
    Not knocking the manufacturer, just letting you know, during these times, it's all anyone can do to produce a product. All the niceties of pre-aligned machines and tight tolerances are currently out the window, so your experience is quite normal. I know you weren't complaining, just looking for help, but lurkers anticipating new machines should understand that they too, will need to play machinist a bit when the new toy arrives, regardless the premium paid.
    Thank you, good information.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hughes View Post
    Derek I would like to suggest don’t not mess with the tables unless you get a longer straight edge 72 inches minimum.
    precision if you can afford it. My straight edge start a 12 inches up to 5 ft. All precision.
    I also have Veritas aluminum and steel they are ok but to get the last 3 or 4 thousands tuned on of long jointer tables precision steel.
    The wood peckers is good looking for dips and humps.
    I use suburban tools for my precision stuff. Starrett has gone over seas with some of their stuff I don’t like it.
    Good Luck
    I wasn't looking to "adjust" anything, I just have been unable to get a strait edge, wood to wood, so I started investigating. As the strait edge is perfectly flat on the infeed and outfeed tables, as much as I can measure .001, I don't think its reasonable to think this is a problem with that strait edge. A longer strait edge would be better but it won't correct the issue I'm seeing. I'll check out Suburban Tools, I also read some people owners posting about Starrett quality issues.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Coolidge View Post
    You Don't by chance have a Starrett No 199 precision machinist level on hand do you? That's accurate enough to level the outfeed then throw the level on the infeed to check for variance vs the outfeed. Just throwing out an idea.
    No but I have a Lamb tools precision level. https://lambtoolworks.com/level

    With that tool, as short as it is, I'm seeing a very small drop over about 6". Probably less than .0005.

    I see your point though, it would be easier to see a sag in the infeed if I had a 72" strait edge.
    Last edited by derek labian; 01-16-2022 at 1:23 PM.

  6. #21
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    I don’t have a documented procedure, don’t need it personally. Remove or add shims as needed.

    Doing this with a straight edge is not normally how I do it. Instead, after verifying that the tables are flat I will use a machinist level to adjust the tables.

    Step one is to get the outfeed table parallel to the head at the lip and at the far end of the outfeed. Then make the infeed coplanar to the outfeed and build in the amount of concavity you prefer in your joints. I like a little bit of concavity.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I don’t have a documented procedure, don’t need it personally. Remove or add shims as needed.

    Doing this with a straight edge is not normally how I do it. Instead, after verifying that the tables are flat I will use a machinist level to adjust the tables.

    Step one is to get the outfeed table parallel to the head at the lip and at the far end of the outfeed. Then make the infeed coplanar to the outfeed and build in the amount of concavity you prefer in your joints. I like a little bit of concavity.
    I think I'd have to go to SCM support to get more information before I just start unbolting anything. I would almost certainly end up with something worse :P

    Your machinist level is probably pretty short though right? Any reason you use that over a strait edge? I purchased the Lamb Tools level for the purpose but if you have a sag in the infeed side, wouldn't it be difficult to see it on a short level? Maybe you have a longer level?

  8. #23
    never had to do it on any machine till an issue with material years back. Did the set up 72" precision ground straightedge. As you shim the tables you see how the shims change measure in my case at four points. Got it very accurate and still had the same problems. Quarter sawn Sapele that was the issue and not the machine. Still good exercise to have set the machine up. got it to .0005. On an old machine there will be some wear areas.

    No one can tell what your technique is. I use a dial for knife projection on set ups but have never checked the knives to outfeed with the dial. check it with two boards on edge to know if you need rear table up or down. drop it till it snipes and work your way back up. No tools needed for that, that is provided technique is okay.

    P1530652A.jpg
    Last edited by Warren Lake; 01-16-2022 at 1:49 PM.

  9. #24
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    Yes, which is why I verify table flatness first. I have a 42” long hand scraped cast iron box section tube for that, then a couple Mitutoyo levels.

    The level is going to show the effect which you are calling sag, sag is not what you are calling sag. I’m going to be persnickety, but for good purpose. Sag would better describe a section of the table that used dipped below the majority of the table, might also describe a table with a section that dips progressively as it is out of flat.

    You’re describing your tabled as such but more likely they are simply out of plane and need to be adjusted into co-planar or nearly co-planar. This is easier to resolve than sagging which would not be resolvable with adjustment.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 01-16-2022 at 1:49 PM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Yes, which is why I verify table flatness first. I have a 42” long hand scraped cast iron box section tube for that, then a couple Mitutoyo levels.

    The level is going to show the effect which you are calling sag, sag is not what you are calling sag. I’m going to be persnickety, but for good purpose. Sag would better describe a section of the table that used dipped below the majority of the table, might also describe a table with a section that dips progressively as it is out of flat.

    You’re describing your tabled as such but more likely they are simply out of plane and need to be adjusted into co-planar or nearly co-planar. This is easier to resolve than sagging which would not be resolvable with adjustment.
    You are correct, I am describing the infeed/outfeed not being co-planer.

    I ordered a 72" Starrett strait edge as suggested which should help. I also did some test cuts on pine instead of my project material, white oak. I was able to get perfectly jointed wood with the pine, both face and edge jointing. I recently switched to applying pressure to the outfeed table only after passing the knifes as I've seen recommended in a number of technique videos. When I tried this with the pine, I ended up with a bow in the wood I couldnt joint away, it just got worse. When I switched to an equal pressure technique I got perfectly flat wood. I also saw some videos that said only apply pressure to the infeed table.

    Perhaps my strait edge is just off enough because I'm registering such a small portion of the outfeed that I was getting those results. No way to tell.

    I'll wait for the 72" strait edge to come in, and try to run some more tests. If I can get a strait piece of pine though, 3' and less than .001 deviation, WOULD that seem to that things are co-planer? In other worse, if things were out of plane, would I still be able to get that short piece of pine flat on one face?

  11. #26
    The only thing the manual states about the infeed/outfeed is that the outfeed table is set by the factory precisely and should not be adjusted.

    I checked this several more times with a couple of tools, the outfeed table is setup correctly.


    I think you can safely disregard the manual as to the first statement- you already know that something is off.

    The relationship between the cutters and the outfeed table is best adjusted by results as Warren said. A pair of 1x4s as long as the outfeed table will show what is going on. You should be able to press on the outfeed table only once the initial flat surface is made. Still, if you can get consistently good joints using your "equal pressure technique", don't fix what is working.

    A very minor change (<.001") can make the difference between good and poor results. Given the apparent droop in the infeed table it may not fix the problem, but it is definitely the simplest adjustment to try and the place to start. On my jointer I use the "carry" adjustment method - rotating the cutterhead will pick up and carry a straightedge overhanging the outfeed table 1-2mm when adjusted properly, and the outfeed is less than .001" below the cutting circle.

    Your straightedge is probably fine for what it is, but you will find it much easier to accomplish what you are trying to do with a longer one, especially if you start shimming the tables. As Brian said, a precision level will do the job if​ the tables are flat - if not all bets are off.

    You definitely should start with customer service but don't expect miracles. If the tables are not parallel then unless there is a fine adjustment mechanism on the table supports you are going to have to do some precise shimming and alignment. This is where the difference between a combination jointer/thicknesser and a jointer shows up - most jointers in this class are likely to have adjustable 4 point supports for each table.
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 01-16-2022 at 2:29 PM.

  12. #27
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    Setting the outfeed table to the cutting circle of the knives is a very critical step for producing straight boards.
    Sometime I prefer the out to be a little bit low for facing. Itís much easier to pass the boards over the head esp when everything is super flat and suction starts gets going.
    But for making long edges straight I set the outfeed to the top dead center of the cutting circle.
    First lower outfeed lower then the infeed. Send a fairly straight long board with the machine one so itís cuts until 4or5 inches hangs over the outfeed. Raise the outfeed until it barely touches the bottom of the board. This is the dead top of the cutting circle.
    Even a infeed thatís slightly out from the outfeed should still produce a straight edge if the knives are set properly with the outfeeds circle. What will mess this up is dull knives or cantankerous wood.
    Good Luck Derek
    Aj

  13. #28
    One thing I remember about the Elite-S J/P's is that most of them really needed true re-calibration after final delivery. The cast iron tables are so long on that particular machine that I suspect they shift around quite a bit during transport. If you look at that cast iron tables from the underneath, the ratio of "table hanging out in space" compared to quadrant that the parallelogram rods occupy/can adjust is much more skewed than most machines of similar class. Not necessarily a bad thing but I would expect a full commissioning to be required on a machine with tables that size. Hope you get it sorted out.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hughes View Post
    Setting the outfeed table to the cutting circle of the knives is a very critical step for producing straight boards.
    Speaking of that, this Oneway Multi Gauge (made in Canada) is becoming one of my most frequently used setup tools.

    https://www.woodcraft.com/products/oneway-multi-gauge

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Coolidge View Post
    Speaking of that, this Oneway Multi Gauge (made in Canada) is becoming one of my most frequently used setup tools.

    https://www.woodcraft.com/products/oneway-multi-gauge
    Yep thatís a nice tool. If I didnít have one Brianís indicator holder Iíd have a oneway.
    Hereís mine with a federal indicator
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Aj

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