Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Cactus Juice with larger punky blanks

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    sykesville, maryland
    Posts
    861

    Cactus Juice with larger punky blanks

    I see a lot about using Cactus juice to stabilize small items, like pen blanks. But I can find very little on using it with say a 7" bowl blank or a chunky vase blank. Anyone done this? How effective is it with large pieces of very punky wood? Also, how much bubbling can one expect from items of this size/makeup in a vacuum chamber? I also suspect oven curing time would need to be longer. I have some beautiful but very punky apple root that I'd like to save, if possible. I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to invest in a vacuum/cactus juice system.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Peoria, IL
    Posts
    4,445
    The first issue would be getting a bone dry 7" blank without cracking it so the resin soaks all the way in and to be able to withstand high oven temps to cure the resin without cracking. Then it would be expensive. Maybe a quart of juice? $40 is a lot of money to stabilize a piece of punky wood.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Northwest Indiana
    Posts
    957
    I did a buckeye burl about 5.5” round 3” thick last summer. Have an old lab oven to dry & cure, left at 220 f for 4-5 days to dry. Seems like I did 36 hours or so of soaking after vac, and some extra cure time. Full penetration and worth the effort for me.
    Downsides— Took some time to clean up some voids when I got close to finish turn. And…be sure to have some way to get the wet piece out of your vac chamber—CJ is slick when wet, and I cut that piece to just barely fit my chamber-a small screw eye in the top would have been a nice addition!
    earl

  4. #4
    Seems as though you could lessen the amount of resin used and drying difficulty by roughing the blank first.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Mesa, Arizona
    Posts
    1,798
    Tom -- I'm in an agreeable mood, so I'm going to agree with everything that's been said so far. As Tom said, stabilizing large pieces can be difficult and expensive. But, as Earl said, with the right piece of wood, it can be worth the trouble and expense. And, as Kevin suggests, both the difficulty and expense can be reduced by rough-turning the blank before stabilizing. Allow me to add some additional information based on my experience:

    It can be very difficult to get Cactus Juice to fully penetrate larger blanks. How successful you might be depends on both the type of wood and how punky it has become. Cactus Juice will easily penetrate several inches into very punky wood. It may not penetrate more than an inch in sound wood. Red oak, ash, and other open-pored woods, will allow Cactus Juice to penetrate more easily. Dense, close-grained woods are more difficult.

    It is critical to get the wood bone dry before stabilizing. Here in Arizona, that's usually not difficult. Even here, I bake my blanks for at least 24 hrs at 115 degrees. If I were in a more humid clime, I'd probably extend the time (but not the temperature). I don't use high temperatures for drying to avoid case-hardening the wood, where the surface of the wood is dried so quickly the surface shrinks, preventing the moisture deeper down from escaping.

    As Kevin suggested, rough turning is the way to go. If you rough turn, you'll seldom need to penetrate more than one-inch deep into the wood. This saves time in the vacuum chamber, saves resin, and yields blanks that are fully stabilized.

    Using these methods, I've successfully stabilized fairly large blanks -- bowls up to 7" in diameter and vases up to 9" long. (I have a large vacuum chamber, but it is only about 10" deep. This limits the length of blank I can stabilize.)
    David Walser
    Mesa, Arizona

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kapolei Hawaii
    Posts
    3,236
    TMI prioducts has a Stick Fast stabilizing system. When I bought mine they sold vacuum bags for that purpose. Unsure if they still do but it may be worth a Google to see if that will suffice. I personally have not bought or tried it.
    They have some nice videos of that too. If they still sell it.
    Good luck! Sometimes a piece of punk is worth saving.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    sykesville, maryland
    Posts
    861
    Quote Originally Posted by David Walser View Post
    Tom -- I'm in an agreeable mood, so I'm going to agree with everything that's been said so far. As Tom said, stabilizing large pieces can be difficult and expensive. But, as Earl said, with the right piece of wood, it can be worth the trouble and expense. And, as Kevin suggests, both the difficulty and expense can be reduced by rough-turning the blank before stabilizing. Allow me to add some additional information based on my experience:

    It can be very difficult to get Cactus Juice to fully penetrate larger blanks. How successful you might be depends on both the type of wood and how punky it has become. Cactus Juice will easily penetrate several inches into very punky wood. It may not penetrate more than an inch in sound wood. Red oak, ash, and other open-pored woods, will allow Cactus Juice to penetrate more easily. Dense, close-grained woods are more difficult.

    It is critical to get the wood bone dry before stabilizing. Here in Arizona, that's usually not difficult. Even here, I bake my blanks for at least 24 hrs at 115 degrees. If I were in a more humid clime, I'd probably extend the time (but not the temperature). I don't use high temperatures for drying to avoid case-hardening the wood, where the surface of the wood is dried so quickly the surface shrinks, preventing the moisture deeper down from escaping.

    As Kevin suggested, rough turning is the way to go. If you rough turn, you'll seldom need to penetrate more than one-inch deep into the wood. This saves time in the vacuum chamber, saves resin, and yields blanks that are fully stabilized.

    Using these methods, I've successfully stabilized fairly large blanks -- bowls up to 7" in diameter and vases up to 9" long. (I have a large vacuum chamber, but it is only about 10" deep. This limits the length of blank I can stabilize.)
    I'm not too worried about the cost of the materials because the wood would warrant the effort and cost. I also don't buy that it'll take a quart of CJ to do a 7" bowl. Seems like an over estimate to me, as the entire blank likely occupies less than 2 quarts. Estimating that it's 50% air by volume.... hmm I doubt it. Might be 25 or 30 though.

    On roughing out first, makes sense assuming you can mount it safely on the lathe. The couple of pieces I tried to put a tenon on were not safe except between centers. A mortise might be a bit more stable. I suppose I could turn as much as possible between centers and then maybe drill out the remaining center column. That would remove the bulk of it. All this suggests you know about what form you plan to make beforehand. That might change if certain parts were to become more stable after CJ application. I guess it's just a compromise/balance as to what to remove vs. retain before CJ application. And of course all of this affects not only cost but cure time and probably penetration success.

    Thanks for the inputs. I see it can be done, has been done, but takes longer to cure and may be costly. There are other reasons to have a stabilizing system. I have about convinced myself it's worth the investment. Trying to decide on a pump. Am leaning toward 1/2HP 6cfm and a 5 gallon chamber. Does this sound like a reasonable functioning setup?

    Also, like the idea of an eye hook to remove it. Any other suggestions on how to package/remove from vacuum chamber?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Peoria, IL
    Posts
    4,445
    Quote Originally Posted by tom lucas View Post
    I'm not too worried about the cost of the materials because the wood would warrant the effort and cost. I also don't buy that it'll take a quart of CJ to do a 7" bowl. Seems like an over estimate to me, as the entire blank likely occupies less than 2 quarts. Estimating that it's 50% air by volume.... hmm I doubt it. Might be 25 or 30 though.

    On roughing out first, makes sense assuming you can mount it safely on the lathe. The couple of pieces I tried to put a tenon on were not safe except between centers. A mortise might be a bit more stable. I suppose I could turn as much as possible between centers and then maybe drill out the remaining center column. That would remove the bulk of it. All this suggests you know about what form you plan to make beforehand. That might change if certain parts were to become more stable after CJ application. I guess it's just a compromise/balance as to what to remove vs. retain before CJ application. And of course all of this affects not only cost but cure time and probably penetration success.

    Thanks for the inputs. I see it can be done, has been done, but takes longer to cure and may be costly. There are other reasons to have a stabilizing system. I have about convinced myself it's worth the investment. Trying to decide on a pump. Am leaning toward 1/2HP 6cfm and a 5 gallon chamber. Does this sound like a reasonable functioning setup?

    Also, like the idea of an eye hook to remove it. Any other suggestions on how to package/remove from vacuum chamber?
    I didn't know you had stabilizing experience or I wouldn't have suggested an amount that would be used. Sorry.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Northwest Indiana
    Posts
    957
    If it’s pretty punky, you might be surprised at how much air space is left after the water is baked out. You’ll also be well served to keep the blank fully submerged after removing the vacuum, probably a few inches of head space for a bowl blank, maybe more to be sure. The excess is not waste, can be stored and reused. I’m guessing you’ll have to pour in close to 3 quarts, and consume a pint and a half. If we start a pool, those are the numbers I’ll take!! Sounds like a fun project. Do a few batches of other wood first, Curtis at TurnTex has great info on his site but there’s still a little learning curve. He’s pretty open to phone calls as well, good guy.
    earl

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    1,647
    I haven't tried cactus juice but I have used Min-wax wood hardener - - the solvent based one. I think that the solvent is acetone. It is not used in a vacuum. It just relies on the wood soaking up the solvent-thinned resin. I've had reasonable luck with it. I suggest that you get the wood bone dry before applying so that you don't have a water/acetone interaction. The biggest piece that I've done is a short-squatty 10" dia x ~ 4-5 " hollow form of gum amber with spalting.

    It's kind of pricey - - IIRC $15 for a pint but I recall that it only used about a half can for the 10" piece. It might be worth a try. I suspect that it isn't as good as cactus juice, but it doesn't require a pressure pot or vacuum chamber. It might be worth doing a $15 experiment. But I'd suggest trying it on a sample piece in case you don't like the results.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Peoria, IL
    Posts
    4,445
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice Rogers View Post
    I haven't tried cactus juice but I have used Min-wax wood hardener - - the solvent based one. I think that the solvent is acetone. It is not used in a vacuum. It just relies on the wood soaking up the solvent-thinned resin. I've had reasonable luck with it. I suggest that you get the wood bone dry before applying so that you don't have a water/acetone interaction. The biggest piece that I've done is a short-squatty 10" dia x ~ 4-5 " hollow form of gum amber with spalting.

    It's kind of pricey - - IIRC $15 for a pint but I recall that it only used about a half can for the 10" piece. It might be worth a try. I suspect that it isn't as good as cactus juice, but it doesn't require a pressure pot or vacuum chamber. It might be worth doing a $15 experiment. But I'd suggest trying it on a sample piece in case you don't like the results.
    Before cactus juice, lots of pen turners melted plexiglas in acetone and made their own stabilizer. But now with every retail store and office needing plexiglass shield, the price of acrylic prices are sky high!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Northwest Indiana
    Posts
    957
    David Walter makes a great point on pump size. Don’t know why it wasn’t an earlier thought m but if you’re already using a vacuum chuck, that pump is probably sufficient, just add a manifold to link in your vac chamber(s). I run 2 chambers off my JB Eliminator 4 cfm and a 4 port manifold. When I get around to adding vac chucking, I’ll run off that same pump and could do so while stabilizing. Impediment for me is the stabilizing setup is in the basement, and my big lathe is in the shop/ garage.
    David—would be interested in pics of your 5 gallon chamber and where you sourced your lid.
    earl

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Mesa, Arizona
    Posts
    1,798
    Earl -- Here is a link to the current version of the chamber I use. This one is aluminum, mine is stainless steel. Also, this one costs about twice what I paid for mine! The company also sells lids, with a silicone gasket, should you source your own pot. (A sturdy aluminium stock pot should work and cost a lot less.) https://shopbvv.com/collections/wood...vacuum-chamber

    At the time I bought mine, I realized I could save some money by sourcing the glass for the lid and other items locally. However, I was still working 60+ hours/week as a tax CPA and valued my shop time more than the money I might save. My point is I highly recommend this kind of set up. The size of pot would depend on what you think you'll be stabilizing. I went with a large sized pot because I wanted as much flexibility as possible. I would encourage anyone with the time and skills to consider making their own vacuum chamber -- using this basic design as a model.

    HTH

    David
    David Walser
    Mesa, Arizona

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    sykesville, maryland
    Posts
    861
    Quote Originally Posted by David Walser View Post
    Earl -- Here is a link to the current version of the chamber I use. This one is aluminum, mine is stainless steel. Also, this one costs about twice what I paid for mine! The company also sells lids, with a silicone gasket, should you source your own pot. (A sturdy aluminium stock pot should work and cost a lot less.) https://shopbvv.com/collections/wood...vacuum-chamber

    At the time I bought mine, I realized I could save some money by sourcing the glass for the lid and other items locally. However, I was still working 60+ hours/week as a tax CPA and valued my shop time more than the money I might save. My point is I highly recommend this kind of set up. The size of pot would depend on what you think you'll be stabilizing. I went with a large sized pot because I wanted as much flexibility as possible. I would encourage anyone with the time and skills to consider making their own vacuum chamber -- using this basic design as a model.

    HTH

    David
    Amazon has the 5 gallon pots with glass lids, gauges, & valves for about $129. They also have many others, some with pumps, for reasonable prices. I think I'm going to pull the trigger on something. I do have a diaphragm pump attached to my lathe. I was originally thinking I'd just add a manifold to it, but it's really not in a convenient spot and the pump is effectively bolted to the lathe. Thanks to everyone for their inputs.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Northwest Indiana
    Posts
    957
    Thanks for the info David. I’ve looked at BVV in the past, and agree on the side mount. I’m down to about 50 hours/week, fully appreciate the value prop of time vs. money! Just need to decide between 10 & 15 gallons and pull the trigger.
    Tom…thanks for letting us hijack your thread for this sidebar!
    earl

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •