Changing sharpening workflow - Help please! How often do you strop?

[steven c newman]

Chisels: Strop in use IF they are in need of it....if not, carry on with the task
Planes: IF and only IF needed....and NOT in the middle of a task. 0.00005" thick shavings look nice, good IF you are just showing off on a video...takes way too long to get any task done. After I'm done with a project's use of that plane...THEN I might strop, before the next job/project


Too much time is wasted on getting that "Perfect Edge Grail"...only to ruin it on the very first pass on anything but Balsa Wood....

[Rob Luter]

.....Planes: IF and only IF needed....and NOT in the middle of a task. 0.00005" thick shavings look nice, good IF you are just showing off on a video....

^^ This ^^

I use a plane to reduce wood thickness, true, flatten, and smooth. I gauge how effective the plane is by the resulting wood surface, not the shavings I'm peeling off.

[Christopher Wellington]

In my experience, stropping after a 16,000 grit Shapton stone makes the edge worse, not better. My strop setup is a piece of leather mounted to a wood backer, with green compound.

[mike stenson]

In my experience, stropping after a 16,000 grit Shapton stone makes the edge worse, not better. My strop setup is a piece of leather mounted to a wood backer, with green compound.

I agree, but I've taken to stropping my chisels to keep the edge longer when dovetailing... Before taking a break and going back to the stones. I hadn't stroped in years, until recently.

[Steve Catts]

Very helpful Rob. First-hand stories are really helpful.

[Steve Catts]

Steven, couldn't agree more.

I respect that some of our community have, over time, developed a true, specialized expertise which I totally respect. For some others, it does seem like the sharpening becomes the 'end' rather than a means. I'm just trying to settle on a highly practical and simple approach which will keep me in the wood and finding pleasure in the work. I expect that the old 80/20 rule probably applies with the possible exception of a smoother plane blade maybe needing 90/10!

[Steve Catts]

Christopher, this is helpful.
I have seen posts going for and against stropping after this level of honing. Your point is the primary reason for that part of my question. I expect that one's stropping technique will be part of people's experience. I'll have to give it a shot and been willing to say "naw, not worth it..."

What level of hone grit do you stop prior to using your strop? Or do you just strop to maintain the edge?

[Scott Clausen]

I agree, I am just trying to get a sharp edge that I can use for a task. If I must inspect with a scanning electron microscope to confirm if it is the sharpest on earth, it takes some of the fun out of it.

[steven c newman]

The last grit I use...is 2500 grit....then either the leather strop, or the Unicorn..IF it is out on the bench....a H-f Green Stick is used for either..then back to work.
Gene's No. 4, Shavings of Ash.JPG

YMMV...

[Jason Buresh]

Now, I'm not a theoretical physicist or an engineer, but if you could get a perfect edge, where the bevel and the back meet at a molecular level, would that even be a durable edge? I would think if you ground an edge to that fine of a point, the edge would roll or break depending on the temper and type of the steel. After one pass it would still be sharp, but looking under the microscope it wouldn't be a perfect edge anymore.

I'm not pointing fingers or calling anyone out here, I'm just genuinely curious.

[Scott Clausen]

Yeah, the truth lies somewhere in between but this after all, a sharpening thread. It doesn't take long to go off the rails.

[Jim Koepke]

0.00005" thick shavings look nice, good IF you are just showing off on a video...

For me, thin shavings are useful for setting up the lateral adjustment after sharpening a blade. Thin shavings with a properly set lateral adjuster are less likely to leave tracks, even with an uncambered blade.

Though 0.00005" is close to the record in the Kezurou-kai competitions. My best is about five times that thickness.

Another thing to consider, if your plane can not produce a thin shaving, the sole may not be flat. A flat sole may not be important on scrub planes or jointers. For a smoother or block plane it can make all the difference in the world.

In my experience, stropping after a 16,000 grit Shapton stone makes the edge worse, not better. My strop setup is a piece of leather mounted to a wood backer, with green compound.

Found this same edge worsening effect after honing on an 8000 grit Norton stone. Now my stropping is at most two or three strokes to each side after the stones.

The more strokes on the strop, the more likely the edge will become rounded. Though that seems to be the new normal for some with the unicorn method.

Paul Sellers used to teach a method of rounding the bevel. Haven't heard a lot about that lately.

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

Paul Sellers used to teach a method of rounding the bevel. Haven't heard a lot about that lately.

jtk

Ha! When I was first learning I used the rounded bevel method. 50 strokes on the strop with as much pressure as you can. That was bad advice

[Luke Dupont]

For me, thin shavings are useful for setting up the lateral adjustment after sharpening a blade. Thin shavings with a properly set lateral adjuster are less likely to leave tracks, even with an uncambered blade.

Though 0.00005" is close to the record in the Kezurou-kai competitions. My best is about five times that thickness.

Another thing to consider, if your plane can not produce a thin shaving, the sole may not be flat. A flat sole may not be important on scrub planes or jointers. For a smoother or block plane it can make all the difference in the world.



Found this same edge worsening effect after honing on an 8000 grit Norton stone. Now my stropping is at most two or three strokes to each side after the stones.

The more strokes on the strop, the more likely the edge will become rounded. Though that seems to be the new normal for some with the unicorn method.

Paul Sellers used to teach a method of rounding the bevel. Haven't heard a lot about that lately.

jtk

I've used both Paul Seller's method of sharpening a convex bevel, and the traditional Japanese method of just keeping a totally flat bevel all the way to the edge.

As I've done both for years, and still do (simultaneously) I think I can offer a pretty good comparison.

I like Paul Seller's method for Western tools. I wouldn't use it on my Japanese chisels or plane blades though.
It has a few advantages -- it reduces the amount of steel in contact with the stone, and it prevents what I call "sticktion" which is a phenomenon that often happens with sharpening the Japanese way -- dead flat. Basically, sticktion, as I define it, is when two perfectly flat surfaces suspended by oil or water suddenly create suction and the bevel sticks to the stone quite forcefully. This can happen in the middle of sharpening, and generally causes you to dive the edge into the stone, as the bevel gets stuck suddenly while your hands keep going. This, of course, makes for a big mistake that you need to correct.

That "sticktion" happens so consistently for me with the dead flat bevel method that I intentionally put just the ever so slightest bit of camber on the upper part of the bevel on my Japanese tools to prevent it.

Anyway, as for the Paul Sellers method, it works excellently with a strop. The convex nature of the bevel means that it's almost impossible to dub your edge on a strop, unless you're really baring down too hard or have way too soft or thick of a strop. I'm really picky about the angle which my chisels start cutting at when bevel down, and I've never found stropping such a bevel to make any difference in the cutting angle. Stropping a flat or hollow ground bevel can be much more problematic because you're creating a "hard" corner which bears all the pressure, as opposed to a slightly curved surface that evenly contacts with it.

I think where people go wrong with convex bevels is that they don't focus on the maximum angle, and put all the curvature at the tip. That's the opposite of what you want to do. The curvature of the bevel should be consistent throughout the entire bevel, right up to the tip -- no rounding or dubbing at the tip. And you should sharpen "backwards", ie, you pay attention to the "maximum angle" that which defines the cutting edge, and you just end / start each stroke at that angle, dropping down a few degrees, and back up a few degrees. The convexity doesn't need to be super pronounced, just a few degrees even. This frees one up from trying to register really thin plane irons and the like flat against the stone, and is, overall, just really simple and repeatable with very little fuss. No messing around with micro-bevels or fretting over secondary bevels getting too fat, etc.

I have come to like plain leather strops when using finer grit stones, though. You can get a great edge with just an India or Soft Arkansas and a loaded strop, but as you get into finer stones, leather is a better way to refine the edge, as some stropping compound, especially if not clean, can degrade the edge left by a good finishing stone.

Plain leather is also surprisingly capable. A vintage Washita with a plain leather strop, and say, 30-40 strokes on the strop, can give you a surprisingly fine edge. Not quite as good as what you'd get off of a transluscent or something, but approaching it. Some leathers seem to work better than others. One piece of leather gives me a screaming edge on the smooth side. Another, gives an equally good edge on the rough side, but doesn't do as well on the smooth side. And a third piece of leather that I tried actually *dulls* my edges consistently when used on the rough side. All just plain leather. So, some experimentation is in order, and one person's experience may not be true for all.

[James Pallas]

I use a strop. For chisels and carving tools I guess I strop often compared to some. It’s a mindless thing to me, I just pick up the strop and give the tool a few rubs and forget about it. My strop is always out. The second picture shows how I hold it, looking down at it. I couldn’t hold the camera the strop and the tool but you get the idea. I’m looking parallel to the tool edge and the strop so I can see the angle of the tool against the strop. I use green or gold compound on the strop. Either will indeed raise a fine wire edge with light pressure on the tool. Works for me and has for a long time. Plane blades get the stone than a light strop. I like the strop, no water, no oil just sharp. I understand that green compound is about .5 micron but that is if no significance to me, it just works.
Jim