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Thread: Maksiwa Edgebander Glue Problems

  1. #1

    Maksiwa Edgebander Glue Problems

    Wondering if anyone has experience with the Maksiwa. I'm not doing a lot of edgebanding, a pile of shelves (30-50) every month or so, but I've been having trouble getting a clean glue line between the banding and the ply. I've spent time to make sure that the edge on the ply is "perfect" without blade or milling marks, square etc. I'm using Jowat 282.20 (filled/natural) low-temp hot melt glue per recommendation from the manufacturer. The glue is rated between 130-150C and I have done tests at both of those extremes and bumped up the temp to 160 and 165 to see what happened. It seems like the texture from the glue roller is transferring to the edge of the ply and the little bumps from that are not smoothing out as I roll the banding on. The roller is not damaged, the glue is new, the machine is only 4 months old. I'm using 1.5mm banding and it's definitely well adhered to the ply, that's not an issue. Typically running maple, cherry and walnut and it's hard to notice on the maple because the color of the glue is similar to the wood. It's more noticeable on the walnut and cherry. Anyone have any good ideas? Thanks for the input

  2. #2
    Can you post a photo? Holzher bander here not the same bander. Is the glue line issue only visible after trimming? First guess may be too heavy glue application?

  3. #3
    PS, as much as a pain it is you may try running some brown instead of natural on the walnut/cherry. My bander is a cartridge and I keep natural, white, and black on hand. Run mostly natural but darker colors do better with the black and super whites I run the white. Not so easy with a glue pot but if the bulk of your banding is darker material it may be worth a try not that that says anything for the roller texture. Not sure if your able to adjust the roller pressure or move the feed away from the roller slightly.

  4. #4
    I will try to get a pic to you today. I can adjust the feed away from the roller and, obviously, glue volume. What are you using as your benchmark for when your glue amount is just right? I'd be totally happy to switch up glue colors if that solved the problem but I'll need to switch brands or find a similar low-temp glue that's available in a dark color.

  5. #5
    Is this a problem you have had from the getgo with your new machine or has it arisen during use? I would be reluctant to run the glue at a higher than recommended temp. Many problems seem to come from overheated and rarely cleaned glue pots.

    As Mark said, can you adjust the pressure or glue thickness to get a thinner glueline without compromising the strength of the bond? Have you tried different glue formulations?

    I am no expert on edgebanders but ran parts through one occasionally for a few years and observed the guy who was responsible for maintaining and adjusting our old Brandt. They can be temperamental and I have to say I have never seen a hot melt glueline that is as clean and crisp as a well done clamped pva one. If I was doing low volume banding and wanted a boost in productivity over clamps without compromising quality at all I would be looking at an edge press like the Hess Mobil. For affordable volume production though it is impossible to argue with a feedthrough bander with automatic trimming.

    Did you have a tech set up your machine and show you how to adjust it to get an acceptable result? Can you get useful tech advice over the phone through your vendor? It may well be worth paying to get in a tech who is familiar with your machine.

    If you have not done so, you might post over at woodweb. I think you will find more people there who are familiar with this type of machine.
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 12-31-2021 at 11:06 AM.

  6. #6
    190C is pretty much the standard working temp for glue pellets, across the board. Our techs set the standby (non-working) temp to 160C. You might start there. Also, I have seen the bander you’re describing in a few shops and most owners seemed to be always fighting with them, so it might not be you at all. Hope you get it sorted out.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  7. #7
    After looking at the Maksiwa website I see that they offer one automatic bander and several hand-fed ones without trimming. Which do you have? The manual ones are bound to be dependent on operator "skill" and less likely to see the payoff from a tech visit.
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 12-31-2021 at 11:52 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Burns VT View Post
    I will try to get a pic to you today. I can adjust the feed away from the roller and, obviously, glue volume. What are you using as your benchmark for when your glue amount is just right? I'd be totally happy to switch up glue colors if that solved the problem but I'll need to switch brands or find a similar low-temp glue that's available in a dark color.
    I forgot you'r running low temp glue so your color choices may be limited. I can rarely get brown in cartridges. Natural, black, white (and white is priced like gold bars but its handy when its handy). I would just try reducing the glue volume incrementally and see if the glue line tightens up. Just guessing but wondering if the combination of roller pressure imprinting the sheet (seems like it would be a heck of a lot of roller pressure) and maybe a bit to much glue are starting points. My bander has no roller on the glue station just a smooth pressure roller following the gluing station so.

    I understand what Kevin says about an utterly flawless glue line with wood tape but if I set my trimmers a tiny bit fat (leaving a few thou on each face) and then hand sand them with an edge break (I just cut V blocks and use adhesive abrasive) the banding is perfectly acceptable (to me) even with prefinished maple tape and ply using the edge break but I think I can understand what your seeing from running natural on bright whites. There can be a hint of a glue line there and on darker woods if your glue application is heavy I'd imagine it being pretty visible.

    I dont know how realistic this or if its possible on your machine, but I have read several times about people stirring universal tint in their glue pot. I wouldnt have any issue trying that if it were me.

  9. #9
    PXL_20211231_163929929.PORTRAIT.jpgPXL_20211231_163933869.PORTRAIT.jpg
    Here are a couple of pics of two reject shelves. This is a fair bit worse than they normally are but does highlight the situation. I've barely done any edgebanding work in my life so really appreciate the feedback. This is a manual machine and is thus prone to user error. I think I have that part mostly under control but any idiot can say that! Maksiwa has not been responsive but a couple of the edgebanding/hot melt vendors are and I will connect with them. I think that the 1.5mm banding might make things tougher on me and I will try experimenting with some thinner stuff to see if that works. Two follow ups and thanks again:

    Do people think using universal tint will effect the glue performance? Willing to try it
    Does anyone know a good place to buy smaller hotmelt quantity. Hard to justify buying a 44lb bag as an experiment

  10. #10
    Yeek... I see your concern. I would be looking heavily at the roller pressure if you think the imprinting is causing those gaps in the glue line. Might be best to tackle one issue at a time but I still dont think reducing your glue quantity to a point where you still have good adhesion/contact but not so much glue that the banding cant get rolled dead tight before it cools.

    I know people will argue but I would have zero issue with tinting the glue in the pot. Its an extra step and a pain in the butt especially having to purge or for changing colors. That natural glue line is what Im talking about when I run bright whites. There are no gaps in my glue line but its there even with buffing and scraping stations. With white its invisible. Black, invisible. I dont band a ton of Walnut/Cherry natural finish.

    I'd be trying to get your glue quantity as low as you can, dont disagree with running at the upper end of the temp. And dealing with the imprinting for the gaps.

  11. #11
    This is not ply and wood tape, but this is what Im banding past few days and the glue line.
    band1.jpg

    band2.jpg

  12. #12
    That looks great. I'm about to do another bunch of shelves in the next week or so and I'll give an update. I've seen where people use that clear pvc banding just so they are able to run through the machine and get a transparent look at what's going on after the banding is on. I will mess with the universal tint as well and see what I hear back from different vendors as far as alternative glue options. I know that answer is to get a more serious machine but the volume just isn't there to justify at this point. Thanks

  13. #13
    Brian, another thought: That level of bander is really a 0.5mm/1.0mm machine, regardless of what the manufacturer says. Same goes for us and for the Italians. Yes, you “can” do 2mm or even 3mm on a few of these machines but they’re not good at it and it’s work + experimentation to make the machine apply the banding properly. Good luck. I hope you get it sorted out.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  14. #14
    Thanks Erik, I think you're right. In theory, I like to have a little more beef for the nosing but think that the stiffness is causing part of my issue. I have some .5 and 1mm stuff that I'm going to try this week

  15. #15
    Have you grabbed ahold of the banding with a pair of pliers or vise grips and stripped it off to see what the glue pattern is like underneath? Or warmed it back up with a heat gun/iron to get the banding off to see if its spreading out under the tape? That may be a good thing to look at as well. I periodically will run some test parts and turn off the end trim and catch them the instant they come out and strip the tape back off to see the glue.

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