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Thread: Sawstop ICS Problems and Support

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fred everett View Post
    This is unfortunate after what you've been through. Maybe this won't affect the overall timeline on when you expected to be up and running.



    Maybe I'm paranoid but I wouldn't run that.
    It is what it is I guess. I'm just too exhausted to keep playing the game. Totally worn down and I'm at over $5000 in losses at work now so I'm better off just getting back to trying to get an order in for the saw I wanted. Once the sawstop is repaired I'll hopefully be able to sell it without too much trouble.

    As far as the arbor threads and the nut hanging off them: Sounds like Frank and Clark do it no problem. Not having the nut on all the way, too scary for me. Can't do it.

  2. #47
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    Just to have some comparison...

    image_29913.jpg

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Hall View Post
    Got off the phone with my vendor again today. Sawstop is closed, again, but I wanted to get on the schedule for the arbor replacement. "Sawstop hasn't authorized the repair." Clear communication is obviously lacking here. I don't understand why they told me they were setting up the repair with the vendor, but they also didn't authorize any part of the repair at all.

    Vendor also let me know they can't accept a return without a 25% restocking fee unless sawstop wants to buy it back. I'm so over it at this point. I wish I had gone with another brand. Will have to get this fixed and then sell it myself, and then buy the machine I wanted.
    Your problem was escalated very quickly, then the NYE holiday happened. Not everyone was kept on board with decisions and resolutions because it bypassed normal warranty procedures. You should just wait until SawStop is available to respond and clear up the repair authorization issue with the vendor. Just guessing here but it sounds like SawStop expected your vendor to provide the repair but did not make clear to the vendor that SawStop would reimburse for labor. Vendor does not want to get stuck with the labor and travel time costs. SawStop may be actually trying to push the repair labor cost onto the vendor. The vendor is seeing this coming and is putting some friction in the response to you so as not to set a de facto policy that they do not want to support in the future. Warranties typically do not cover every customer expense. For example, the consumer frequently has to pay shipping back to manufacturer and wait until it is received and diagnosed with no compensation for consequential damages like lost time or lost sales. This is unfortunate for buyer but that is the way warranties work.

    There are some legal points that you would need to know about in the UCC Article 2 regarding implied warranty for merchantability and fitness for use that might help you if you pursue return and full refund. The vendor may not be able legally to refuse to take the saw back if you can show it is ‘not fit’ for the purpose it was sold for. In this case, the fitness for use is a fairly technical point that a woodworker would understand but that not average Joe or Joan who heard it would. The standard for fitness is pretty lax, “fair”, “ordinary”, or “average” fitness for use of table saw, not the exceptional high quality that SawStop is known for. In court, you would have to have expert witnesses and a solid presentation. You already have some facts in your favor. SawStop has determined that your saw was in a group with manufacturing defects and were committed to repairing it under warranty and SawStop’s assessment over the phone (you will need to have the call tape at least) says that your saw needs a replacement arbor. You are obligated to give the seller an opportunity to “make it right”, in this case reasonable time and access to diagnose and fix the problem before they have to accept the return and refund. I can tell you are frustrated already but I would not think you have yet met your legal requirement to give the seller a chance.

    How much would it cost in legal fees to force the return? More than the 25% restocking fee for sure. The vendor would wind up paying similar or a bit more for his legal fees. You don’t want go to court. You just want the vendor to know you know the commercial code and are willing to stand your ground. It establishes that you know your legal rights. Neither side would normally be able to recover fees from the other.

    My advice, buy the saw you want now. Keep your workflow moving. That is your priority. Put the SawStop as far out of your mind as you can. Call SawStop everyday for a week for updates, then every other day for two weeks, then every week for a month. Put the SawStop on the market as soon as it is fixed and be done with it. Once you have crossed this Rubicon, you have no obligation or incentive to protect the reputation of the vendor. Publishing their name here or elsewhere would be fair in my view.

  4. #49
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    How did you pay for the saw? Cash, check? or a CC? If CC, I would be putting in a complaint with the CC company. Yeah, might be premature, but I think some pressure from that direction might get your full money back
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Hall View Post
    Got off the phone with my vendor again today. Sawstop is closed, again, but I wanted to get on the schedule for the arbor replacement. "Sawstop hasn't authorized the repair." Clear communication is obviously lacking here. I don't understand why they told me they were setting up the repair with the vendor, but they also didn't authorize any part of the repair at all.

    Vendor also let me know they can't accept a return without a 25% restocking fee unless sawstop wants to buy it back. I'm so over it at this point. I wish I had gone with another brand. Will have to get this fixed and then sell it myself, and then buy the machine I wanted.
    Why would there be a restocking fee if the saw is defective. Did they offer a loaner saw until your saw is fixed.

  6. #51
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    Bryan,
    I had a problem with the Bosch Glide. My wife got me one for Christmas and, while setting it up I noticed a defect. I went back and forth with Bosch (who were great) and the replacement saw had the same problem. It so happened that the Woodworking Show came to town and Bosch had one of their techs bring two Glides to my house. So now I had four saws. All four saws had the same problem. The tech took them all and Bosch issued a refund.

    Maybe SS will have a rep or something in town. It really helped my case when the Bosch guy got involved.

    My story had a happy ending. My wife felt bad that I didn’t get the aglide so she bought me a SS ICS that has been great. I love my wife.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by fred everett View Post
    Maybe I'm paranoid but I wouldn't run that.
    Why are people so hesitant to follow advice given by those who design and build the machines? Is there some vast reservoir of hidden knowledge that had been tapped by some?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Pratt View Post
    Why are people so hesitant to follow advice given by those who design and build the machines? Is there some vast reservoir of hidden knowledge that had been tapped by some?
    You can ask this same question about so many things. I'm sure that other engineers are frequently tired of having laymen know more about their products than they do.
    ~mike

    life in a mud hut

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike stenson View Post
    You can ask this same question about so many things. I'm sure that other engineers are frequently tired of having laymen know more about their products than they do.
    Can you guys point out where this advice is coming from? I can't find anything in the manual that says the nut doesn't fully seat on the arbor. I also can't find any resource anywhere on the web that says the nut doesn't fully thread onto the arbor.

    I can, however, find photos and information on woodworking sides that say the nut should be fully threaded. I can also find specs based on the thread per inch about how far the arbor is supposed to stick out past the end of the nut. I can also find report of an accident just a few months ago with the arbor nut coming off on a dado stack for this companies saw. So I think it's pretty healthy to question the situation, especially on a saw that the manufacturer already admits the arbor and arbor block are defective.

    I've looked for several days on this. If you can find and share the information that the engineers are sharing, by all means please post it.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Stanek View Post
    Why would there be a restocking fee if the saw is defective. Did they offer a loaner saw until your saw is fixed.
    Vendor has stated that Sawstop froze their entire inventory and took most of their saws back to the factory because every one of them is defective. So, they don't have a loaner saw to give.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Hall View Post
    Vendor has stated that Sawstop froze their entire inventory and took most of their saws back to the factory because every one of them is defective. So, they don't have a loaner saw to give.
    Well, this explains a lot.
    ~mike

    life in a mud hut

  12. #57
    What a mess. I imagine Sawstop will eventually make good but that doesn't help the interruption of your business. Given that you lack a tablesaw and your 1st choice (slider?) is not readily available, maybe you can pick up a used cabinet saw on Craigslist for temporary use and sell it when things get sorted out. Far from ideal but maybe it would allow you to get some work out the door. How about ths one? https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/...425973485.html Good luck.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Hall View Post
    Vendor has stated that Sawstop froze their entire inventory and took most of their saws back to the factory because every one of them is defective. So, they don't have a loaner saw to give.
    Odd that this isn't more widely known. I can't find any info on the web about a sawstop defect.
    Brian

    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger or more complicated...it takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - E.F. Schumacher

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Tymchak View Post
    Odd that this isn't more widely known. I can't find any info on the web about a sawstop defect.
    They aren't openly sharing the info as far as I know. My vendor has been asking ME to give them info on what is wrong with my saw, so that they can figure out what is wrong with their saws. Sawstop hasn't been sharing details with them and this defect is less than 1 month into being acknowledged.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Hall View Post
    Can you guys point out where this advice is coming from? I can't find anything in the manual that says the nut doesn't fully seat on the arbor. I also can't find any resource anywhere on the web that says the nut doesn't fully thread onto the arbor.
    They state that a 3/4" dado set can be used by leaving out the outer washer. From that one can safely deduce that the nut will be sufficiently threaded on to work safely. Manufacturers spend a great deal on legal & will include extra verbiage at every opportunity. I see this as a case of the intent being so obvious that further explanation is not required.

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