Sawstop ICS Problems and Support

[Alan Schwabacher]

This doesn't sound like other Sawstop saws.

[Bryan Hall]

Pardon me if this is trivial but how do you measure the blade moves left/right when you raise it? Do you measure with a fixed dial indicator or do you test it against the fence? The laminate face of fence is known to to be not 100% flat. That's the biggest issue I have had with the fence system (others report it too) but the fence itself can be adjusted to satisfaction. If the blade moves left/right with moving up/down that's a very strange case indeed.

I haven't tried to measure the total movement in an exact way (I think the dial indicator would work but I don't have one), but if you look at my zero clearance plate it shows bizarre wear patterns. When the blade is all the way up, there are kerf gouges to the left at front and back of blade. When you lower the blade a bit, there are kerf gouges on the right, front and back. Lower it more, kerf gouges on the left again. It goes back and forth with a significant swing.

@johnny means: SS told me that the arbor is likely wobbling bad enough to be causing a pinch against the table when the blade is beveled.

[mreza Salav]

I would get a dial indicator and set the saw up properly and measure arbor run out and other movements you are describing. My arbor run out was between 0.001 and 0.002" as best as I could measure. If you have significant run out the blade would wobble badly. I would check things with different blades btw.
If things are as bad I would return the saw or swap parts if they offer.

[Thomas Wilson]

Bryan, this is every consumer’s nightmare. I hope you can get to a satisfactory resolution. One of the things I notice about technical customer service in general is an assumption that the customer does not know what he is talking about. This is pretty much the starting point for any discussion. You have to prove yourself to them to get them out of their script and actually look for an actual problem with the equipment. I try to ask questions rather than tell them something, “What does this symptom mean? How do I test for that? What does that technical term mean?” The more you get them to talk, the more you will be able to communicate back in their language and jargon. If the person really is over his/her head and simply does not have the information you need, try to ask them to bring another person into the call. Try to get them to use a Zoom video call. Face to face helps to overcome the doubt they might have about the reality of your problem and your ability to convey it accurately.

I have a ICS. It has been trouble-free except for wing flatness. I would suggest a couple of things you can do. First, get a dial indicator. This is very useful for aligning the blade to miter slot and fence to miter slot and riving knife to blade. These tests need the dial indicator to ride in a mount in the miter slot. With a magnetic base that attaches to table, you can also test blade runout which you probably have. There is another test in the manual for blade alignment on pages 51-56 of the owner’s manual. The test requires a dial indicator with magnetic base that slides in the miter slot. The test seems tricky to do but I would investigate this possibility to see if it contributes to the kickback problem.

Good luck on this problem. I will be following your reports.

[fred everett]

To answer a few questions and fill in the blanks:

I did a bunch of tests and measurements to make sure the blade was correctly calibrated. The only thing that was obviously off what the riving knife, it was aligned to the left of the blade, instead of the center/right of the blade like the wanted. The zero clearance plate gives interesting feedback. As the blade is raised and lowered the blade moves left to right. This is part of why accuracy can't be guaranteed. The fence can only be calibrated to a single blade height. It looks like the blade is moving left to right about 1/16th of an inch depending on the height of the blade.

I did send them a bunch of pictures and videos. I got more frustrated when they kept asking for repeat photos and videos from different angles and perspectives. The reason this is frustrating is this: I'm not a fool, and I pointed out a lack of any scientific testing or documentation from the start. I formerly did bridge and dam testing where we used micrometers to test the stresses on steel. When this process with sawstop started I pointed out that they weren't asking for photos or precise measurements, and they told me to not worry about it. When the tests failed, they then wanted more documentation. The test fails again, they want it redone with different photos. The test fails again, they want it done with different tools. The time wasted sitting on hold, repeating tests, uploading photos, writing emails, this is significant. If you want test results that are accurate, start with asking for them in an accurate way. Don't ask the client to repeat the test over and over again with progressively tighter tolerances.

Then, when I'm actually on the phone with a tech and he's asking me to do the table flatness test and give him measurements: I tell him I'm using a .010 (their tolerance) feeler gauge and I can rock the straightedge up and down due to the size of gap. He asks "how big do you think the gap actually is? .012?" I responded that I'll check and get him an exact number. He asks again ".015?" I respond again, just a second I'm going through the feeler gauges. That's when I got yelled at "FINE STOP. JUST STOP I GET IT. STOP THE TEST I'LL GIVE YOU A TABLE." (Diagonally the table is out .019. From left to right it's out .070).

So, SS terminated the test before I could even give the actual numbers. It doesn't add up to me. You want photos of everything, from every angle, multiple times. You want proof of the quality of my measuring tooling. You want proof of how I'm holding the tooling. You want me to replace my measuring tooling with items from home depot. Then, when I've passed through the gauntlet you have a blow up and refuse to get the actual test results?

As far as returning and/or exchanging the tool goes: As best I can tell every new saw is affected by this issue. They have nothing to exchange my saw with. Returning: I haven't asked because I don't have a backup plan. I have a dewalt jobsite saw.... but the idea of building out my work log of 50k in cabinets/builtins on that saw makes me sick.

If the saw still has issues after the repair (not expected) then I think discussing a return is reasonable. I'm not pleased with their CS, but I also want to avoid knee jerk reactions and abandoning all hope. There's a TON of bad manufacturing since COVID hit. I don't want to think this is the new norm, but I am starting to think that's the case.

Maybe it IS an outlier, or a Covid manufacturing issue but a protocol should be in place that qualifies each warranty event...it's not rocket science. With all the great things I've read about Sawstop I would think they'd offer an apology an expedite the parts you need.

Defects are going to happen as perfection is unachievable. However, even if they've sold a million saws, and yours is the first with issues, yelling at a customer is unacceptable.....I'm having trouble getting by that.

I need to buy a new saw, but I'm not running a business. That said, I'm back to considering other options because even as a hobbyist I can't afford to make a $3k mistake. It stinks that you have to go through all this.

[Bryan Hall]

Update:

I had no idea it was coming but sawstop must have overnighted it. I just received what looks to be a complete arbor block to replace my bad one. I also received a new zero clearance insert to replaced the existing damaged one. No paperwork of any sort. Just a box with parts.

[mreza Salav]

I must have (printed) detailed instruction on how to change the arbor block. If you need I'll have to dig it up and scan it for you. Let me know.

[Bryan Hall]

My vendor is going to take care of all the repairs. They'll replace both the tabletop and the arbor block, and then they'll fully calibrate the saw.

[Thomas Wilson]

My vendor is going to take care of all the repairs. They'll replace both the tabletop and the arbor block, and then they'll fully calibrate the saw.

Sounds like an complete reversal of your earlier experience. Good for SawStop. Hope you are up and running soon..

[fred everett]

Update:

I had no idea it was coming but sawstop must have overnighted it. I just received what looks to be a complete arbor block to replace my bad one. I also received a new zero clearance insert to replaced the existing damaged one. No paperwork of any sort. Just a box with parts.

My vendor is going to take care of all the repairs. They'll replace both the tabletop and the arbor block, and then they'll fully calibrate the saw.

That's great news. Hopefully you're back in business quickly.

[Bryan Hall]

Table top is the mystery delivery date. They think it will be at sawstop on the 15th, then overnighted to the vendor, then setup the repair day. So, hopefully full strength by the 3rd week of January?

[fred everett]

Table top is the mystery delivery date. They think it will be at sawstop on the 15th, then overnighted to the vendor, then setup the repair day. So, hopefully full strength by the 3rd week of January?

Hopefully it's an under promise/over deliver situation and things happen quicker for you. It sounds like your vendor has treated you well.

I've contemplated my purchase for so long I'm tired of thinking about it lol

[Ronald Blue]

Glad things are moving in a hopefully positive direction. Hopefully the issues are soon resolved. I'm curious how you tune up the saw as far as getting the miter slot parallel to the blade without a dial indicator? You could do it with feeler gages but it would be a challenge and take a while.

[Jerome Stanek]

I have had my ICS for over 12 years and have dealt with Sawstop a few times. Their customer service IMO has been up there among the bests (like LV or beyond) and I am not easy to please. I probably have documented a few instances of my interactions with them early on. They are typically knowledgeable and have taken care of me beyond warranty.
Having said that I can feel how irritating your experience has been.
- regarding the table, is it the main table top that is off or an extension wing? and how much off we are talking about? I had to play with one wing to get it perfectly flat at the joint. Cast Iron does bend a bit (it's not as rigid as many think). Clamps and then tightening the bolts helps.

- The kickback you are describing at bevel cuts sounds an out of alignment issue. Sawstop has an excellent set of instructions to adjust the saw and in particular how to adjust it for bevel cuts. Have you gone through those steps? I have taken my saw apart a few times (moving from basement shop....) and put it back and have gone through the adjustment.

- The issue of the blade not detecting your finger: many people don't fully understand how the saw actually detects fingers. The original owner (Gass?) once answered that question on this forum as I had the same experience. The saw has two mechanism for detecting a finger touch, I forgot the terms but if you touch the the tip of the carbides with a (dry?) finger it wont easily detect it. If you touch the side of the blade it detects it but in a different way. To detect your finger touching the tip of the carbide it needs a bit of moist that might not be on the skin but if it breaks the skin it will immediately detect. I had noticed this and it was explained many years ago (should dig to find the thread). So the short answer is almost surely your saw is not faulty. There hasn't been a false-negative regarding sawstops AFAIK.

- Having manufacturing issue with some brakes and asking you to swap them shouldn't shake your confidence in the product or company. The fact that they are pro-active and contact/follow up to remedy this is actually a good sign. I have had one of the original saws that had a different cartridge. They changed their system after a few years later to a more improved one. In a phone call I had with them on a different issue they punched my serial number and noticed it and they offered to me to change the mechanism to the new one and sent me new brake cartridges too (all free of charge!).

I hope you can sort out your issues (perhaps they are not as deep as you might think) and enjoy your saw.

You got your saw back when Sawstop was its own company. now you deal with a different company

[Mitch schiffer]

It may be somewhat associated to covid or labor shortages. I bought a saw stop this year I had several issues with cut quality. I initially regretted buying it but I kept it since I did cut a finger on my previous table saw about 5 years ago. I did end up getting the issues with mine figured out. Fortunately for me no parts were needed. I spent a entire day getting the saw adjusted. There was really no single thing I didn't have to adjust.
One of the most frustrating adjustments is the riving knife adjustment. There is really not a good way to adjust it the holes are oversized and its not indexed by anything. The table in relation to the blade was also off. While the bolts are hard to get at to adjust this I found it easier but a little more time consuming then the riving knife. I did adjust the French as well but that was very easy. In the end im happy with my sawstop. The only complaints I still have are with a dado blade I have to lock the blade height or it will slowly lower on me. The same issues applies when having the blade at a bevel from about 25 to 35 degrees this will also move if not locked. My other complaint is the arbor is not long enough to use the factory washer with a 3/4 dado stack.