30mm vs 40mm bore size for new shaper

[Joe Calhoon]

Yes in a shop that size in order to have room to work I would go with the 1.9m slider and smaller rip capacity and expect to use a track saw for some things. Altendorf also has a nice short stroke slider. I think it is called the WA 60. I looked at one in Europe and a nice small shop machine. Not sure what SCM has in the L’invincable line for short stroke but you might check that out.The T12 is a very capable machine and can be compact without table extensions and pull out support. What you lose from the T27 is mass, no tilt and no possibility of the feeder arm.
you would have to go with the DC 40 feeder on this machine. For a jointer planer Hofmann is the best but not readily available here.

[Jason McCray]

Yes in a shop that size in order to have room to work I would go with the 1.9m slider and smaller rip capacity and expect to use a track saw for some things. Altendorf also has a nice short stroke slider. I think it is called the WA 60. I looked at one in Europe and a nice small shop machine. Not sure what SCM has in the L’invincable line for short stroke but you might check that out.The T12 is a very capable machine and can be compact without table extensions and pull out support. What you lose from the T27 is mass, no tilt and no possibility of the feeder arm.
you would have to go with the DC 40 feeder on this machine. For a jointer planer Hofmann is the best but not readily available here.

It looks like the feeder arm with the Variomatic 4N is still an option on the T12 just not the motorized feeder support. Do you recommend the DC 40 over that on the T12?

[Joe Calhoon]

It looks like the feeder arm with the Variomatic 4N is still an option on the T12 just not the motorized feeder support. Do you recommend the DC 40 over that on the T12?

Sorry I meant to say the Wegoma Variomatic. It is a heavier built feeder than the DC 40 and quite a bit more expensive. The biggest disadvantage of using the DC 40 is it would require pushing 2 buttons to start the feeder. Because the DC 40 is all electronic. You would only be able to get the Smart Stand on the T12. The power arm is only available on the T27.

[Jason McCray]

Sorry I meant to say the Wegoma Variomatic. It is a heavier built feeder than the DC 40 and quite a bit more expensive. The biggest disadvantage of using the DC 40 is it would require pushing 2 buttons to start the feeder. Because the DC 40 is all electronic. You would only be able to get the Smart Stand on the T12. The power arm is only available on the T27.

Do you know how close the T12 can sit to a wall using the Smart Stand vs. the power arm on a T27?

[Jason McCray]

And one other question: the saw can not take the "Pneumatic lowering of rip fence below table level" with the 850mm rip capacity. Without that option can it still be lowered below table level manually or does it need to be fully removed?

[Joe Calhoon]

Do you know how close the T12 can sit to a wall using the Smart Stand vs. the power arm on a T27?

The power arm sticks out behind the shaper about 8 or so inches. The problem is if you are doing curve work or large tenoning the fence has to be removed and it swings to the back of the shaper. You need about 3 feet of space for this at the minimum. A solution to this is to keep a narrow pallet jack on hand and just move the shaper away from the wall the few times you might run into this.

[Joe Calhoon]

And one other question: the saw can not take the "Pneumatic lowering of rip fence below table level" with the 850mm rip capacity. Without that option can it still be lowered below table level manually or does it need to be fully removed?

I don’t know. My 20 year old T72 has the manual spring counterbalanced lowering system. It works fine, don’t know if this option is still available. Maybe someone with a newer saw can chime in. These fences are very heavy and if any electronics will have cords attached.

[Erik Loza]

...There’s no doubt however that combination machines can provide high quality, extremely capable machines in a compact, cost effective format….Rod.

No disagreement there. I've sold probably 200+ full combo machines (mostly Italian, to be honest) in my time in this industry. Here are some observations I have made over the years.

-More customers would probably go full-combo to begin with but initial price point is the biggest obstacle. So, they start with a jointer planer and keep their Sawstop, etc.

-Shaper is the function most American owners use LEAST. In fact, I've had folks ask on multiple occasions if it would be possible to order a full combo without the shaper. Felder actually made such a machine for a period of time.

-I have never gotten a complaint about the rip capacity on a full combo being inadequate. Perhaps because most people who buy such a machine are not focused on cabinetry. Obviously, if you plan to process a lot of sheet goods, you would get a combo with a long slider or perhaps the combo is simply not a good fit in the first place.

-I've never had a customer complain about the switchover time on a full combo. I think this is where this particular conversation is going a little off the rails. Every customer I've ever sold a combo to went into the experience with the understanding that "You're a one-man operation, working in a small space, so there will be tradeoffs". If I was doing specialty doors and windows on the regular, then yeah, absolutely get a separate shaper and probably a serious one. But (in my experience) that is not 99.9% of garage customers. I would say that the vast majority of these owners just want to have a nice, accurate machine to do their fun ww'ing projects on. But of course, everyone's wallet is their own and it's your money, so you should buy what makes you happy.

Erik

[Rod Sheridan]

I also like short stroke sliders for home shops Erik, I chose a J/P and a saw/shaper because that fit better in the shape of my small shop.

I really use the shaper a lot, for me it’s the machine I would keep if I had a choice between a shaper and a saw, in seminars I often talk about the bandsaw, J/P and shaper being the essentials for solid wood furniture, of course we also sell format saws😀 and I provide courses and training on those.

In Canada, 4 function combination machines are very popular in Quebec, possibly the European influence remains strong……Thanks for the conversation…. Rod.

[Warren Lake]

the old europeans I knew that had the SCM Invincibles had separate saws. One a cabient saw and one two cabinet saws with one set up for ripping one set up for cross cutting. The combo machine saw was for working solid wood as most of the machine was as well.

.

[Joe Calhoon]

The OP mentioned early in this thread he had owned A five function combo and wanted stand alone machines in his new shop of a higher quality.

[Warren Lake]

I responded to the small rip width on combos mentioned somewhere above and why they were that way at least when the old guys bought these machines to start their shops.

[Jason McCray]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Martin MitreX double mitre fence when the outrigger has the RadioCompens mitre cut system? Does the MitreX become redundant?

[Jason McCray]

One more: the front of a T45 planer can either take a foldable extension table or an automatic thicknessing table lubrication system. I was going to do the table but now second guessing. Any thoughts? And is the 2nd outfeed rubber roller a good idea?

[Erik Loza]

...And is the 2nd outfeed rubber roller a good idea?

I've never used a Martin planer but have sold plenty of Italian and Austrian ones. For the average shop, I would suggest steel outfeed rollers over rubber. In my experience, rubber is generally only useful if the operator is planning to run lots of wet/green lumber. This option is normally sold in conjunction with adjustable in-bed rollers. Maybe those are already standard with Martin? Not sure. The other issue with rubber outfeed rollers is that like a power feeder, they harden and glaze over time and this happens more quickly in weekend-warrior shops who only use the machine every so often. The steel rollers require no maintenance and should have more than enough grab as long as you keep the planer bed waxed. Hope this helps,

Erik