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Thread: 30mm vs 40mm bore size for new shaper

  1. #1

    30mm vs 40mm bore size for new shaper

    I am speccing a new shaper and it will come with a single 1 1/4" spindle (I am in the USA). 30mm and 40mm spindles are also available. I've been looking primarily at Whitehill and almost all of the tooling is available in 1 1/4" and 30mm. Some stuff is also available in 40mm but I can't find anything that is *only* 40mm. Is there any reason to have a 40mm spindle?

    Motor sizes are 10 hp, 13 hp, and 15 hp. 10 hp feels like it should be sufficient but the up-charge to 15 hp is small compared to the total cost of the machine. For a sliding table saw or shaper is a 15 hp motor nice to have or complete over kill. These machines are for a home / hobbyist shop and will probably be with me for life.

  2. #2
    Jason as someone with a 3 HP shaper, I'm having a hard time getting my head around a 10HP or better shaper for a home shop, I'd be envious but I know my electrical service wouldn't handle something that big. I would say take a look at the profiles you would want (assuming you don't have any already) and see what bores you can get them in. I would think you can get most everything in 1.25" bore cutters and only if you have one or more in some other bore size then consider those alternate spindles. For me, the biggest share of my shaper cutters are 3/4" bore with a couple of larger ones. I'm not doing production work so they work just fine for me. Worst case, can you get either or both of those alternate spindles at a later date?
    My 2 cents.

  3. #3
    A 40 mm spindle could be useful for massive tooling used in a commercial millwork shop, as could a >10hp motor, but otherwise it would be overkill. 1 1/4" is the standard heavy spindle size in the US and a wide variety of tooling is available.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCray View Post
    I am speccing a new shaper and it will come with a single 1 1/4" spindle (I am in the USA). 30mm and 40mm spindles are also available. I've been looking primarily at Whitehill and almost all of the tooling is available in 1 1/4" and 30mm. Some stuff is also available in 40mm but I can't find anything that is *only* 40mm. Is there any reason to have a 40mm spindle?

    Motor sizes are 10 hp, 13 hp, and 15 hp. 10 hp feels like it should be sufficient but the up-charge to 15 hp is small compared to the total cost of the machine. For a sliding table saw or shaper is a 15 hp motor nice to have or complete over kill. These machines are for a home / hobbyist shop and will probably be with me for life.
    Hi Jason, at this time Whitehill is supplying products as readily in 1.25 bore as 30mm, with blocks in 1.25 more common in NA, and 30mm more common in Europe. 10HP is a pretty serious machine and ought to do just fine even for large double discs for tenoning. I would think 40mm would make everything more of a nuisance down the line. What machine are you getting?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
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    Peoria, IL
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    2,886
    You must be planning on making windows with stacked tooling? With a 15hp you would need a pretty fast power feed to utilize all that power. Going to need a hell of a dust collector to handle what that thing could make!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by brent stanley View Post
    Hi Jason, at this time Whitehill is supplying products as readily in 1.25 bore as 30mm, with blocks in 1.25 more common in NA, and 30mm more common in Europe. 10HP is a pretty serious machine and ought to do just fine even for large double discs for tenoning. I would think 40mm would make everything more of a nuisance down the line. What machine are you getting?
    I have a preference towards metric and so will probably go with 30mm even thought 1 1/4" probably makes more sense. Aside from being easier to source in the USA, everything I was interested in at Whitehill was available at 1 1/4" in addition to 30mm. Nothing at Whitehill was limited to 40mm, that I could find, but I am sure 40mm has its place.

    The machines are a Martin T27 shaper and T75 saw. They are both available with the same 10, 13, or 15 hp motor. I think even the 10 hp is overkill for my current needs but the larger motor is a minor cost compared to the overall cost of each machine. The compelling reason for going smaller is easing electrical requirements. At present I am limited to 100A of 240V single phase service. These two machines require 480V power so I will need a PhasePerfect to convert to the 3-phase 240V, then a transformer to go from 240V delta to 480V Wye (PhasePerfect does have voltage doubling versions but I will have other 240V 3-phase equipment so that may not be the best route to go).

    Aside from bore size on the shaper the other option to consider is arbor type: the standard is SK40 but HSK85 and HSK63F are both options.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alberta
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    2,145
    Have you ever even used a shaper before ?

  8. #8
    No brainer for me since it keeps auction stuff open. 1 1/4" 98 percent of the shapers in auctions ive seen are 1 1/4" and so the tooling is or larger think ive got stuff to 50 MM likely Weinig that came with other stuff I bought. I saw one 30 MM shaper for sale and tons of tooling once up here in tons of years. If you are going all new stuff and reasons to then whatever you prefer. LIkely bushings to go from 30 MM to 1 1/4". Never checked but the Weinig head i have came with bushings for 1 1/4" which was nice of them.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kees View Post
    Have you ever even used a shaper before ?
    +1. To the OP, let's back up a second: What's the full story here? New production shop? Rich hobbyist dream shop? These questions are like, "I'm going to buy a Ferrari. What weight oil does it take?"

    I can tell you that 1.25" would be the overwhelmingly most popular bore diameter and that there is very little need for an HSK63 spindle unless you plan to do MANY profiles on this machine or unless you already own an industrial CNC router. OP, help us help you out here.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    +1. To the OP, let's back up a second: What's the full story here? New production shop? Rich hobbyist dream shop? These questions are like, "I'm going to buy a Ferrari. What weight oil does it take?"

    I can tell you that 1.25" would be the overwhelmingly most popular bore diameter and that there is very little need for an HSK63 spindle unless you plan to do MANY profiles on this machine or unless you already own an industrial CNC router. OP, help us help you out here.

    Erik
    I had a shaper on my combination machine a few years back but didn't use it much - or the rest of the shop, for that matter, was very busy with work at the time. Have since moved and retired and starting fresh with a dedicated detached building (not purpose built but what was existing on the lot). I do know I want separate machines now (not the 5 in 1 combo) and the money is there to go high end. So I guess this isn't about need but how to configure the dream shop?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCray View Post
    I had a shaper on my combination machine a few years back but didn't use it much - or the rest of the shop, for that matter, was very busy with work at the time. Have since moved and retired and starting fresh with a dedicated detached building (not purpose built but what was existing on the lot). I do know I want separate machines now (not the 5 in 1 combo) and the money is there to go high end. So I guess this isn't about need but how to configure the dream shop?
    Gotcha. OK, my suggestions which you may feel free to do with as you like:

    -On the shaper, go 1.25".
    -Talk to Rangate for your tooling needs. If you are planning to buy a power feeder, buy one of the Comatic DC units, probably a 4-wheeler on your machine.
    -Do NOT get an HSK spindle on this machine. Whatever Martin's "standard" spindle is, is what you want.
    -On the slider, 10HP is plenty for most needs. Ditto on the shaper.
    -If Martin offers an option for free trigger leads on their machines, get that. It will make them easier to wire into your dust collection system.

    As a general note, I would avoid as much automation and bells/whistles as possible. This is blanket advice to any hobbyist/home shop. "Yes", fancy, but there WILL be electronic issues at some point and obviously, there is a cost (out of the customer's pocket) to have those things handled. Less of cost to have those things handled if the dealership is somewhat local but realize that if a tech has to get on a plane, you're paying for all that. Even my shops that take great care of their equipment are calling Tech Support every so often. I have a local shop that is running a bunch of machines off a PP converter. They did everything right and my tech still had to come back after the initial install because the machinery was fighting with something about the PP. They got it sorted out but point being, none of that was free. Good luck with your project.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Gotcha. OK, my suggestions which you may feel free to do with as you like:

    -On the shaper, go 1.25".
    -Talk to Rangate for your tooling needs. If you are planning to buy a power feeder, buy one of the Comatic DC units, probably a 4-wheeler on your machine.
    -Do NOT get an HSK spindle on this machine. Whatever Martin's "standard" spindle is, is what you want.
    -On the slider, 10HP is plenty for most needs. Ditto on the shaper.
    -If Martin offers an option for free trigger leads on their machines, get that. It will make them easier to wire into your dust collection system.

    As a general note, I would avoid as much automation and bells/whistles as possible. This is blanket advice to any hobbyist/home shop. "Yes", fancy, but there WILL be electronic issues at some point and obviously, there is a cost (out of the customer's pocket) to have those things handled. Less of cost to have those things handled if the dealership is somewhat local but realize that if a tech has to get on a plane, you're paying for all that. Even my shops that take great care of their equipment are calling Tech Support every so often. I have a local shop that is running a bunch of machines off a PP converter. They did everything right and my tech still had to come back after the initial install because the machinery was fighting with something about the PP. They got it sorted out but point being, none of that was free. Good luck with your project.

    Erik
    Is there a downside to the HSK spindles, outside of the cost?

    The automation and high-tech features are definitely a concern to me. I plan to have this stuff for a long time and I don't want the machines themselves to be a headache. The touch screens on them, in particular, I imagine will look very dated in 10 or 20 years (if they are still working). But none of the shapers from Martin and only the T60 saw are available without them.

    Where do you draw the line? Is motorized height adjustment on a planer worth it?

    This is all stuff I've run through but you've got me rethinking it.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Ouray Colorado
    Posts
    1,175
    Jason,
    HSK 63 is good if you want to share tooling with a CNC router or if you are a shop running 3 to 5 profiles constantly. HSK 85 is good if you want to share tooling with a Weinig moulder with the same system. Otherwise the Dornfix is good for general woodworking where many cutters are used. The Dornfix shafts can be changed in less than a minute so you are not saving much time on shaft changing vs the HSK. Aftermarket HSK shafts can be had cheaper than the Dornfix shafts though if you are planning on having a lot of shafts. In my shop I have 5 or 6 Dornfix shafts in sizes 30mm, 1.25, 40 and 50mm. Most used is the 30 and 40mm. 1.25 will cover most needs in a home shop. One advantage of 30 is you can run 1.25 on a 30 but not the other way around. I use 40 a lot in my shop because I make windows and doors with heavy tooling. You can spin up to about 320 diameter tenon disks with a 1.25 shaft but if you run tenon heads a lot the 40 is better and less wear on the bearings. Also if doing much tenoning the Dornfix shafts will take more weight and tool stack than the HSK.
    If you ordered the power feed arm you will be getting a Wegoma feeder and will be way better than the DC40 smart stand setup.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason McCray View Post
    I had a shaper on my combination machine a few years back but didn't use it much -
    I would strongly suggest getting some hands-on training. Joe Calhoon runs workshops that I am sure you would find worthwhile. https://alpineworkshops.com/workshop...d-joinery.html

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Ouray Colorado
    Posts
    1,175
    The electronics are a worry for sure but hard to escape on most any new machinery now. I bought my Martin’s new 22 to 20 years ago. The electronic stuff was just starting then. I am now just starting to have small issues on the the shaper and saw. It’s usually something simple but trying to figure out what is the issue. I believe the new Martin’s have better electronics than my vintage but they are also more complex. That is one thing I like about the Hofmann machines is a top notch machine can be ordered with minimal electronics if you wish. Unfortunately they are not readily available here. The Martin planer and jointer are pretty simple on the electronics and should not give any trouble. Really nice on the planer to go to certain dimensions then return to them if you have to. Also the ability to take off just 0.1mm if needed. I could never go back to a old school planer.
    10 Hp will be just about right especially if you ordered the inverter as you loose a little HP with those. My vintage T23 has a 6.5 - 7.5 and it does fine tenoning till you get to white oak. A couple passes in harder wood is not the end of the world. My T26 has the 13 HP and only a few times when I felt that was needed.
    I’ve restored a couple vintage Martin machine and joked with my shop associate that I felt like I was restoring a rotary dial phone! He said, yes but every time you push the button they will start! I love these machines but like all the safety and convenience features of the new machines. Some things have been lost but more gains than losses.

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