30mm vs 40mm bore size for new shaper

[Joe Calhoon]

I would strongly suggest getting some hands-on training. Joe Calhoon runs workshops that I am sure you would find worthwhile. https://alpineworkshops.com/workshop...d-joinery.html

Thanks for the plug Kevin! I’d do try not to sell the Workshops on the forums. Only offer advice if I can.

[Patrick Kane]

Maybe a dumb question, but the Martin doesnt have interchangeable spindles? You can always get multiple spindles. I run a 1.25" spindle on my Felder, and frankly, i think 30mm might have made more sense. As Joe says, you can bush 1.25" to fit on a 30mm spindle. Not the case with 1.25" spindle. Something to think about if the arbor on the T75 is 30mm, 40mm, etc. You will be able to use adjustable groovers interchangeably between the shaper and the saw, which is convenient. My Felder 700 series is a 30mm arbor and i have the 1.25" spindle, so it lead to me having redundant tooling because of the bore diameter. Dumb.

Other than that, i think everyone covered everything already. What do you care about auctions and second hand tooling? You are about to spend $80-100,000 on two tools, buy new through Rangate! Considering the circumstances, i request you film yourself firing up the 15hp T27 the first time with the biggest tooling it can take : )

Are you getting the t45 and t54 to complete the set? That is a truly enviable shop setup. My goal is to have circa 1999-2000 Martin equipment one day.

If you would prefer, i can trade you a vintage Martin T17 without electronics for your T75? In fact, ill throw in the remainder of my shop equipment as an added bonus! Say what you will about electronics failure, the new stuff has to be significantly nicer/better than the old stuff. I owned a vintage t75, and your contemporary t75 will be 50x the better machine to operate.

[Erik Loza]

...Where do you draw the line?...

Since you asked, here are my thoughts for the HOME SHOP...

-The more analog your machine is, the better. Powered raising/lowering on planer tables or powered movements on a saw unit are fine but I would avoid things like motorized rip fences and programmability. These are what will be both expensive to troubleshoot and repair when/if and also, when they fail, render the entire machine useless.

-I'm an advocate single-phase machinery for home shops if at all possible. Sure, you'll be replacing capacitors at some point but by the time you get done installing a PP, it will be $10K. $10K buys a lot of machine/tooling/accessories. Obviously, if you're needing a 20" planer or big shaper, your only options will be 3ph. but I've accumulated enough happy 1ph customers over the years that told me it really simplified their lives.

-Machinery like what you asking for is awesome but also, way overkill. Of course, you are probably aware of that and perhaps you just want to own some beasts (nothing wrong there) but there is no project you will undertake that machinery half or even a third the price won't accomplish just as well. My Seiko Divemaster keeps just as good time as a Rolex Submariner, if you get my meaning.

-Based on experience, I can tell you that my happiest home ww'er customers have bought machinery which is "enough" (of which there are many choices), then actually spent most of their money on outfitting their machines with options or their shops with things that make life better/easier from an ergonomic perspective. For example, an analog sliding table with digital stops rather than motorized. Complete accuracy and nothing to go wrong or fail. Or, things like mobile trolleys, fence and safety accessories, shaper jigs, etc. You and I could run the same board through a $4K Hammer planer and a Martin planer and you could not tell the difference in the result. Sure, I would never suggest a $4K planer for a production millshop but point being that if you are the type of person just wants to make the occasional project on nice equipment, there are MANY options that will give you the exact same result as the iron beasts. Hope this all makes sense,

Erik

[Jason McCray]

Jason,
HSK 63 is good if you want to share tooling with a CNC router or if you are a shop running 3 to 5 profiles constantly. HSK 85 is good if you want to share tooling with a Weinig moulder with the same system. Otherwise the Dornfix is good for general woodworking where many cutters are used. The Dornfix shafts can be changed in less than a minute so you are not saving much time on shaft changing vs the HSK. Aftermarket HSK shafts can be had cheaper than the Dornfix shafts though if you are planning on having a lot of shafts. In my shop I have 5 or 6 Dornfix shafts in sizes 30mm, 1.25, 40 and 50mm. Most used is the 30 and 40mm. 1.25 will cover most needs in a home shop. One advantage of 30 is you can run 1.25 on a 30 but not the other way around. I use 40 a lot in my shop because I make windows and doors with heavy tooling. You can spin up to about 320 diameter tenon disks with a 1.25 shaft but if you run tenon heads a lot the 40 is better and less wear on the bearings. Also if doing much tenoning the Dornfix shafts will take more weight and tool stack than the HSK.
If you ordered the power feed arm you will be getting a Wegoma feeder and will be way better than the DC40 smart stand setup.

This is very useful information. How is the Dornfix spindle removed?

Either of the HSK spindles require the variable speed motor which is only available at 480V 3-phase. A complication, but also a challenge that is intriguing me. The large sliding table mounted on the left side also requires the variable speed motor and the T75 saw is 480V in any configuration.

[Warren Lake]

Good point on the auction tooling not being a consideration if you are ubber rich. Its more for people like me and the old guys in the trade that I knew.

[Warren Lake]

A tool and die maker told me years ago ad a top spindle support.

He knew zero about woodworking shapers but he was euro trained in his trade at the best time and it was a smart statement that came from bearing and spindle knowledge just applied to our trade. You will see top bearing supports on some older Bauerle and other quality shapers.

[Jason McCray]

Maybe a dumb question, but the Martin doesnt have interchangeable spindles? You can always get multiple spindles. I run a 1.25" spindle on my Felder, and frankly, i think 30mm might have made more sense. As Joe says, you can bush 1.25" to fit on a 30mm spindle. Not the case with 1.25" spindle. Something to think about if the arbor on the T75 is 30mm, 40mm, etc. You will be able to use adjustable groovers interchangeably between the shaper and the saw, which is convenient. My Felder 700 series is a 30mm arbor and i have the 1.25" spindle, so it lead to me having redundant tooling because of the bore diameter. Dumb.

Other than that, i think everyone covered everything already. What do you care about auctions and second hand tooling? You are about to spend $80-100,000 on two tools, buy new through Rangate! Considering the circumstances, i request you film yourself firing up the 15hp T27 the first time with the biggest tooling it can take : )

Are you getting the t45 and t54 to complete the set? That is a truly enviable shop setup. My goal is to have circa 1999-2000 Martin equipment one day.

If you would prefer, i can trade you a vintage Martin T17 without electronics for your T75? In fact, ill throw in the remainder of my shop equipment as an added bonus! Say what you will about electronics failure, the new stuff has to be significantly nicer/better than the old stuff. I owned a vintage t75, and your contemporary t75 will be 50x the better machine to operate.

They are interchangeable and 30mm is nice since it matches the saw arbor. The T75 is limited to 6mm dadoes but the T70 can do 20mm, and it could use the same adjustable groover from the shaper.

I am doing a T45 and T54 as well. Configuration there is a little easier but I will post for comments: the planer will have the 2nd rubber outfeed roller, 2-12m / min variable feed, Xplane helical cutter, motor upgrade from 7.5 hp to 10 hp, a 450mm foldable table extension on the infeed and a 1200mm non-foldable extension on outfeed. Jointer will be Xplane as well and infeed and outfeed extensions.

Question is what bandsaw will fit in best?

What might be less enviable is the space I'm fitting it all in, which is about 25 ft by 30 ft. I've done some layout work in Sketchup and I think I can make it work but it will be tight. I've seriously considered (and am still thinking about) not doing a saw or shaper at all; just jointer, planer, and 1 or 2 big bandsaws, plus a Festool tracksaw (and the new STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table) for cutting up plywood. But I'm not sure that it would be as fun.

[Kevin Jenness]

What might be less enviable is the space I'm fitting it all in, which is about 25 ft by 30 ft. I've done some layout work in Sketchup and I think I can make it work but it will be tight. I've seriously considered (and am still thinking about) not doing a saw or shaper at all; just jointer, planer, and 1 or 2 big bandsaws, plus a Festool tracksaw (and the new STM 1800 Mobile Sawing Table) for cutting up plywood. But I'm not sure that it would be as fun.

Maybe you should dip your toe in, figure out what sort of projects you really like to do and then decide on equipment. It strikes me as a bit odd that you would seriously consider buying the two machines under discussion without being sure whether or not you need them or if two bandsaws would suffice. I have no idea what your life is like but if you could spend a few months in a training program or taking workshops someplace like the Marc Adams school you might find a focus that would make clear what you really want and need. If you decide you want to make dollhouse furniture or netsuke your choice of gear will be much different than for millwork, turning or period furniture. If you want to do larger projects perhaps some of your budget would be better spent on more space.

[Joe Calhoon]

This is very useful information. How is the Dornfix spindle removed?

Either of the HSK spindles require the variable speed motor which is only available at 480V 3-phase. A complication, but also a challenge that is intriguing me. The large sliding table mounted on the left side also requires the variable speed motor and the T75 saw is 480V in any configuration.

Jason,
Yes the vary speed is required for HSK and side mount sliding table. On the sliding table for a slow start with the big disks. I have used the T27 and T12 with the programmable speed and have to admit it is very nice. You can really fine tune for noise and cut quality. Of course your adding more electronics but that issue you will have to figure out for yourself.
the side mount sliding table is the best there is. The one downside is it’s a bit of a changeover because fence has to be removed and a tenon hood installed. Takes a few minutes. I keep my vintage Martin set up with the sliding table most of the time just to avoid change over. The bolt on sliding table is a good option and very quick to set up. It’s faster and more accurate to set. Way better than any of the intable sliders that is common on a lot of euro shapers. It’s limits is when you are tenoning and slotting long heavy workpieces.
the Dornfix or SK 40 as it’s called is very quick to change. Just a little turn of the torque wrench and it’s out. A lot of times if I’m back and fourth a lot I just set up 2 or 3 spindles and just change them. HSK has its place and useful in some situations but I use a lot of cutters on a regular basis and it would take 50k of shafts to keep them all.
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[brent stanley]

I have a preference towards metric and so will probably go with 30mm even thought 1 1/4" probably makes more sense. Aside from being easier to source in the USA, everything I was interested in at Whitehill was available at 1 1/4" in addition to 30mm. Nothing at Whitehill was limited to 40mm, that I could find, but I am sure 40mm has its place.

The machines are a Martin T27 shaper and T75 saw. They are both available with the same 10, 13, or 15 hp motor. I think even the 10 hp is overkill for my current needs but the larger motor is a minor cost compared to the overall cost of each machine. The compelling reason for going smaller is easing electrical requirements. At present I am limited to 100A of 240V single phase service. These two machines require 480V power so I will need a PhasePerfect to convert to the 3-phase 240V, then a transformer to go from 240V delta to 480V Wye (PhasePerfect does have voltage doubling versions but I will have other 240V 3-phase equipment so that may not be the best route to go).

Aside from bore size on the shaper the other option to consider is arbor type: the standard is SK40 but HSK85 and HSK63F are both options.

I would probably go with 30mm and just bush out to 1.25" if you ever need to run a larger bore. 30mm will give you up to 300mm discs on a heavy Martin and is serious kit. If you find a need down the line for a heavy 40mm spindle you can get it then. Not all blocks can be rebored to a larger size, especially hard up to 40mm so 30mm gives you the most flexibility.

The standard Martin spindle system is well respected and will serve you just fine. HSK kit is typically for commercial operations (often with CNC) that value quick changeovers and are often set as "zero set". I've never sold any HSK kit to a non-commercial user.

[Michael Todrin]

If you are looking for Martin level in bandsaws, look no farther than Hema.

https://www.hema-saegen.de/en/home/p...aw-technology/

I have an older UH630 and it is a remarkable machine.

[Mel Fulks]

No brainer for me since it keeps auction stuff open. 1 1/4" 98 percent of the shapers in auctions ive seen are 1 1/4" and so the tooling is or larger think ive got stuff to 50 MM likely Weinig that came with other stuff I bought. I saw one 30 MM shaper for sale and tons of tooling once up here in tons of years. If you are going all new stuff and reasons to then whatever you prefer. LIkely bushings to go from 30 MM to 1 1/4". Never checked but the Weinig head i have came with bushings for 1 1/4" which was nice of them.

“
Yep. Should be 1and 1/4 spindle or changeable spindles. And there is a lot more used commercial shop type stuff for sale than used hobby stuff, the hobbyists like to think “every time I think I’m out , they pull me back in !”
since the hobby guys who quit still want to “keep their hobby” in the drawer.

[Rod Sheridan]

Go with the 30mm spindle, most of the tooling in the world is metric…..Rod

[Patrick Kane]

I have a dozen and a half used steel body cutterheads from auctions for pretty cheap. All 1-1/4” and 40m. None were 30mm. I’ve yet to find sets of adjustable groovers at auction, unfortunately.

For God’s sake, stop trying to talk this guy out of buying the machines. I just want to see the photos upon delivery.

25x30 is super lame for those machines to live in. I have a 20” jointer, 20” planer, Oliver 232, and a much smaller Felder than your future t75. I’m tripping machinery and project parts any time I work in my 650-700sqfr space. I would desperately find a means of expanding that footprint.

Why does the t75 not take wider tooling? That is a little disappointing for their flagship super expensive saw.

Interestingly enough Martin doesn’t seem to be experiencing the same supply chain woes as everyone else. I know someone that ordered a t65 recently and it will be here early February ‘22.

[Jason McCray]

I have a dozen and a half used steel body cutterheads from auctions for pretty cheap. All 1-1/4” and 40m. None were 30mm. I’ve yet to find sets of adjustable groovers at auction, unfortunately.

For God’s sake, stop trying to talk this guy out of buying the machines. I just want to see the photos upon delivery.

25x30 is super lame for those machines to live in. I have a 20” jointer, 20” planer, Oliver 232, and a much smaller Felder than your future t75. I’m tripping machinery and project parts any time I work in my 650-700sqfr space. I would desperately find a means of expanding that footprint.

Why does the t75 not take wider tooling? That is a little disappointing for their flagship super expensive saw.

Interestingly enough Martin doesn’t seem to be experiencing the same supply chain woes as everyone else. I know someone that ordered a t65 recently and it will be here early February ‘22.

The T75 can be configured with a rip capacity as small as 850mm and a slider as short as 1.9m. I was going to do 1350mm rip and 3.3m slider. How big is your Felder?

The high end SCM L'Invincible with a dual tilting blade doesn't support dado sets at all, so it must be related to the +-45 arbor tilt. The T70 that tilts only to the right will take tooling up to 20mm wide.