Fish eye with WB Target EM8000cv

[David Utterback]

First time spraying WB finishes and I have fish eye after a couple of coats. It may be caused by the stearate coated sand paper I have been using so I have switched to 400 grit wet-o-dry which is giving me a lot of corns. I would like to try stearate-free sand paper. Where it can be found easily? It seems that 3X and 7X papers are likely to be stearate treated.

Does anyone know of any products specifically labeled as stearate-free in 400 grit and above? Thanks!

[Kevin Jenness]

I like to use abranet for sanding finishes as it loads less and can be brushed clean a few times. Typically 320# between coats.

[John TenEyck]

I really doubt it's your sandpaper. Flexner did some studies a few years ago and concluded they do not cause problems. I'd be looking at silicone or other oil as the source of the problem.

Are you sure it's fisheyes? I had a problem with EM-9300 where it would pull away from the pores of my white oak leaving what looked like fisheyes. Never fixed it and I ended up having to go with another product. I have used EM-8000CV and it flowed out beautifully on my English walnut table top.

I hope you figure it out. I know how exasperating it can be.

John

[David Utterback]

Thanks for the replies. Over night, it occurred to me that the problem might be the 50 cc syringe I use to transfer the finish from the can to the 3M pps cups. I bought them from LV years ago and the plunger is sealed to the barrel with black polymer which just might be silicone rubber.

The problem has gotten worse as I applied coats to chair parts made with cherry. Since I used the same syringe repeatedly, the rubber may be releasing the silicone in increasing amounts.

I plan to transfer the remaining finish to a stop loss bag and will follow up when our guests have left later today. Target continues to caution about use of stearated sand paper. Yet searching this site, the issue is not clear cut. I certainly believe Mr. Flexner and the esteem SMC cadre of experts including John T.

[Prashun Patel]

Not sure why you need a syringe. Just pour it.

[John TenEyck]

Dave, there's no need to transfer a WB finish to a Stoploss bag. TC's plastic pails are the perfect place to keep unused finish. The finish won't skin over and the pail will never rust.

The syringe may be the culprit but I rather doubt it unless it was lubed with silicone grease and I don't think LV would be that stupid. FWIW, I dip finish out of the pail with measuring cups to load the PPS cup.

I'd be looking at your spray gun, air supply and filter system, etc.

Leaving the syringe out of the equation, I'd take two completely new pieces of wood and hand plane one and sand the other with the same sandpaper you've been using. Apply some finish with a new foam brush, let it dry and repeat with subsequent coats. If both samples look good then it can't be the sandpaper causing the problem. If both look bad then there's something wrong with the finish. If both look good then I'd prepare another sample however you like and do the finishing process with your spray gun. If it you see fisheyes you have your answer. If you don't then it was the syringe.

And if you have any product with silicone in it get it out of your shop.

John

[David Utterback]

Not sure why you need a syringe. Just pour it.

Originally, I was an anal(ytical) chemist and worked as a lab rat. I find transferring finishes 6 or 8 times from a can creates a mess and the lid increasingly fails to seal. I am spraying legs, seat and back splat so only use about 50 mL each time. Since the finish dries so quickly, I can empty the small pps cups in just a a few hours.

[David Utterback]

Dave, there's no need to transfer a WB finish to a Stoploss bag. TC's plastic pails are the perfect place to keep unused finish. The finish won't skin over and the pail will never rust.

The syringe may be the culprit but I rather doubt it unless it was lubed with silicone grease and I don't think LV would be that stupid. FWIW, I dip finish out of the pail with measuring cups to load the PPS cup.

I'd be looking at your spray gun, air supply and filter system, etc.

Leaving the syringe out of the equation, I'd take two completely new pieces of wood and hand plane one and sand the other with the same sandpaper you've been using. Apply some finish with a new foam brush, let it dry and repeat with subsequent coats. If both samples look good then it can't be the sandpaper causing the problem. If both look bad then there's something wrong with the finish. If both look good then I'd prepare another sample however you like and do the finishing process with your spray gun. If it you see fisheyes you have your answer. If you don't then it was the syringe.

And if you have any product with silicone in it get it out of your shop.

John

I just responded to Prashun about limiting pours from the metal can. I have the Stop Loss bags so they are convenient and minimize head space losses.

Lee Valley sells the syringes as part of a glue application kit. It is no fault of theirs that I went off label with it. They are a good, reliable source for most of my hobby needs. Customer service is tops.

Thanks for the responses, everyone.
If I have a continuing problem, I will try you experiment. I just sanded the set with wet-o-dry paper and there is little lost by spraying another coat on a piece.

[Jim Becker]

The bags are great for oil based finishes, but not really necessary for the waterbornes...about a year and a half ago, I used the last of a can of "several generations back" Target Coatings USL (a predecessor of the EM6000) on a shop project. It was left over from a project back in the mid-2000s. No congealed finish on top and in the original one gallon container.

[John TenEyck]

Originally, I was an anal(ytical) chemist and worked as a lab rat. I find transferring finishes 6 or 8 times from a can creates a mess and the lid increasingly fails to seal. I am spraying legs, seat and back splat so only use about 50 mL each time. Since the finish dries so quickly, I can empty the small pps cups in just a a few hours.

If you cover the edge of the can with a piece of plastic or a paper towel and dip it out of the can with a measuring cup the lid seal will stay clean. As Jim said, the unused finish is fine in the can no matter how little remains. I've had a half empty 5 gal pail for at least 3 years and it's still perfectly fine.

Get a larger PPS cup, fill it once, and spray a lot of stuff before you have to refill it. The finish doesn't go bad in the cup between coats. The small PPS cups are OK for spot repair work, but of no value to me for general work.

John

[Prashun Patel]

In fact, the PPS cups are themselves Stoploss bags. If you collapse out the air and plug with the red plugs, the finish will last indefinitely (crosslinker added finish notwithstanding). However, if you do this, before reusing, I would rinse out the filter lid...

I hear you though about resealing the cans. I usually decant all my quart can finishes into 100ml Boston Round glass bottles. The bottles last forever - especially with waterbased finishes, since they clean up with water. I keep extra caps though in case the seal delaminates over time.

[David Utterback]

I had no idea about the shelf life of opened WB finishes. Thanks for all the additional finishing tips. You guys are great!

[Jim Becker]

I had no idea about the shelf life of opened WB finishes. Thanks for all the additional finishing tips. You guys are great!

Yea, it's a different ballgame than with oil based finishes for sure. The biggest challenge I've had with an "older" waterborne is getting settled flatting agents properly remixed into the finish if it's been sitting for a long time.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Please, do yourself a favor: stop the self analysis and self flagellation. Every single product I've tried from Emtech features fisheyes. I've tried everything. Including talking directly to the man over there, who politely sent two more gallons of the miserable garbage, which fisheyed even worse than the first gallon. I also foolishly bought a 5 gallon bucket of his fisheye producing exterior polycarbonate finish. I will be visiting the local re-Store to donate about $500 worth of that miserable product. I can't take another moment of dealing with it in my shop.

In fact, I recently posted in the finishing forum here all about my testing of these issues, and the only cure was to scuff his cured finish, shoot ANY other brand over the top, and it came out perfect.
= something in his products is terribly wrong, and ITS NOT YOUR FAULT!

Please try: General Finishes, Old Masters or even a can of Varathane from your local big box store. Just don't give up on your first attempt at spraying water-based finishes. You accidently picked the worst brand to start with. Not kidding - wish I could be more congenial, but really, it is the worst experience I've ever had with a clear coat in almost 15 years shooting hundreds of gallons as a professional cabinetmaker.

Sorry for the rant, but can't stand to watch another person go through this.

[Prashun Patel]

The products all work for me - without fish eyes. So, something is specific to some peoples' set up. This is not to say you're wrong or that the product should not be so sensitive to a set up, but I've found it forgiving enough. It's a shame the issue is undiagnosed.