CTD, Kapex, RAS or other?

[mreza Salav]

I too am of the mind set that miter saws (including Kapex) are good for finish carpentry but I don't use them for furniture making. They simply don't have the accuracy *I* demand. I have used a Kapex side by side my Milwaukee and didn't find Kapex any more accurate. Again, if you are doing trims nothing beats them and all top brands I think are equally good.

[John TenEyck]

My experience is pretty consistent with Michael's. My Dewalt RAS cuts perfect 90/90 deg cuts, angled cuts, too, but it's not as convenient because of the fence system I have as using the CMS. For cuts less than 12" I look to the RAS first. For wide cuts a sled on my TS is the only choice for me. And, like some others, I get very accurate and tight fitting joints on my Bosch 12" non sliding CMS. It cut poorly out of the box, despite the glowing reviews, but after going through the manual to adjust everything it has been nearly flawless. I found that a 60 tooth blade (which is what came on it and worked very well until I did something stupid) actually gives truer, tighter fitting joints than a 96 tooth blade when cutting 1" hardwoods. The saw just doesn't have enough power to pull that number of teeth through the cut w/o the rpm falling off enough that the blade wobbles just a little bit. With a 60 tooth blade I get straight, tight fitting joints. I use a Makita negative rake blade on it now and it's great. I've made compound angle cuts with it for segmented bowls and, much to my surprise the first time I tried it, the joints are amazing.

For the cost of a used RAS it's an easy choice if you have the room and don't need portability. A couple of hundred $'s and you get a highly accurate and versatile saw that will do its job for decades to come just as it has done for decades already. If you want a trim saw the Dewalt MBF is superb. A great all-around saw is the slightly larger GWI, which is what I have. And the larger, more powerful RA can do just about anything well.

John

[Myk Rian]

After restoring my DeWalt RAS, it's the most accurate saw I have. You have to make sure the ways are in good condition.

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[Randall J Cox]

I have used a DeWalt 12 single bevel chop saw for years, dead accurate. Also have a fully rebuilt old Delta 30-C turret radial arm saw, also dead accurate, at least at 90 degrees, which is where I keep it. I have taken pains to set them up to be accurate (with a dial indicator), and it pays off for me. Randy

[Greg Quenneville]

I have a Kapex and find it mostly fine for building my period house. Like Brian says, it does go out of square due to the fence design, and I do have to run test cuts prior to trying for 90.0°. Usually its fine, but sometimes I have to make very fine adjustments. I now have a slider and aim to use it for the balance of fine mitre work.

[Michael Schuch]

I believe one of the key factors for being accurate and productive on a radial arm saw is being comfortable with the saw and knowledgeable of how to operate it properly and safely. I made my first cut on my fathers 10" Delta turret arm radial arm saw when I was about 10yo, under my fathers close supervision. I did very little ripping on his RAS but it was the only power saw we had so I assisted him with many rip cuts throughout my childhood.

A couple of weeks ago I bought a near perfect shape 14" long arm Delta turret arm radial arm saw for $100 from a shop that makes the rough sawn wooden covers for ceiling beams. The owner confessed that he turned it on once, it scared the heck out of him and it sat in the corner for the next 25 years. The first time I powered on my 16" Redstar turret arm radial arm saw it had a screamer of a blade on it and it scared the heck out of me while I very sheepishly made my first cut. Because I had prior experience on a RAS I was able to get comfortable with it quite quickly. Now when I help my mother out with projects around her house my fathers 10" RAS is a little discomforting. My 16" 7.5hp Redstar beast has so much mass in the carriage and motor that it never tries to lurch forwards or self feed. On my fathers nicely build 10" RAS making a cut is as much about controlling the motor carriage as it is about pulling it.

I was fortunate to have my father guide my through learning the proper use of a RAS. I am not sure how one gains experience on a RAS with out a bit of mentoring on one. I believe this lack of familiarity and knowledge is why many people shy away from radial arm saws and pronounce them too dangerous to use... Which, if you aren't trained on proper use, they probably actually are to dangerous to use.

[Kevin Jenness]

On my fathers nicely build 10" RAS making a cut is as much about controlling the motor carriage as it is about pulling it.

That could have something to do with the blade. Have you tried a negative rake?

A solidly built radial arm saw is a good versatile machine. You can still get a Unipoint from Northfield although I imagine the cost is up there. I believe Omga makes one as well.

Every so often an old Craftsman will show up on Craigslist as a "radio alarm saw".

On the subject of miter saws, the op asked about CTD which led me to believe he was looking for something outside the norm. I've used a lot of non-sliding and compound sliding miter saws- DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, Hitachi, Delta. None of them holds a candle to the two T50-350 Omgas I found for my old employer. I have an Hitachi C8FB which is a solid small scms with a Tenryu blade, and it is great for trim and cutoff work but when I want really accurate miters off the saw I use my sliding table saw. The Omga saws do an equivalent job with less setup and are easier with long pieces.

Maybe I haven't had the right saw or blade or my training was deficient, but I have been around the barn a few times and this is my experience. A more affordable miter saw like mine coupled with a shooting board to hunt down the renegade mils is an option.

Bernie Kopfer wrote If cutting to a gnat’s eyelash accuracy is what you are seeking perhaps the other saws mentioned are worth the $. I believe he is correct.

[scott lipscomb]

The one kind of saw that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is a non-sliding miter saw, which I think of as a chop saw, from the major manufacturers. I have had a Dewalt for about 8 years thats been really abused and it is still as accurate as I care to measure-I don't see gaps in picture frames...While I have never owned a scms, the slide mechanism really seems to introduce a lot of error into the system.

I am following this thread closely, because I have a sliding table saw that I really like, but I only ever use it for crosscutting, and it takes a ton of space my 1000sf shop. I am thinking about moving it along, if I can find a very good cross cutting solution that would occupy a narrow space against a wall. I don't build very many cabinets, though I have a couple of cabinet projects coming up.

The Omgas sure look nice, but it seems like the chop saws at 1/10th the price could be dialed in, especially of they aren't asked to move around. I'd buy a used Omga in a heart beat, if one showed up at decent price, but they sure don't pop up around here.

[Warren Lake]

as far as working a radial and creep issues and the right blade or a blade that will more self feed the bigger issue is operator error.

You keep your arm straight, if they did the motor cannot self feed. Bent elbow that every one uses is the biggest problem and everyone does.

had two Omgas show up in excellent condition for 250.00 canadian each. should have scooped one but waited for an older saw.

[Patrick Kane]

Mark, do you envision yourself cutting miters often, or is this more cutting to final length? If it’s the latter, I will offer a different opinion than the others above me. Get a sliding table saw. If you are cutting angles often then get a sliding table saw with an altendorf duplex/Felder EGL etc. I had a kapex years ago, and wasn’t impressed. I think that would be a fine saw for painted trim on-site, but in a furniture shop it leaves a lot to be desired. A slider will give you infinitely better results than a kapex, but they don’t travel as nicely. As for a radial arm saw or cut off saw they aren’t as versatile as a sliding table saw. I’d love to have a big old radial arm saw for rough cutting lumber, but it would be a one trick pony for me.

[Keegan Shields]

The first question should be “what level of accuracy do you need for the work you do?” My Kapex works great for most levels of accuracy I need. When I need a dead accurate 90 deg, I use a shooting board. But I make furniture mostly, not Kumiko.

I did switch from a Bosch Glide 12” to a Kapex. I had issues with the Bosch flexing out of square which I think is due to the handle being off to one side of the blade. The Kapex handle isn’t as comfortable at the start of the cut, but the handle is centered which I thinks keeps the force in line with the blade.

[Mark Gibney]

Lots of well supported opinions here.
In answer to Patrick above - I would use the tool to cut to final length, so I think I'll keep my eye out for a well priced used cut-off saw such as an Omga or CTD.
A sliding table saw is just not an option due to space constraints.

Today in the shop I used my miter trimmer to fit rails to a face frame. Works great!
I got it earlier this year to dial in cockbeading and I just flat forget I have it. Thankfully I happened to see it today and dragged it out.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, that sounds like a good decision for the reasons you state. And yea, those miter trimmers are awesome tools when you have one to use, especially for detail work.

[John TenEyck]

Mark, do you envision yourself cutting miters often, or is this more cutting to final length? If it’s the latter, I will offer a different opinion than the others above me. Get a sliding table saw. If you are cutting angles often then get a sliding table saw with an altendorf duplex/Felder EGL etc. I had a kapex years ago, and wasn’t impressed. I think that would be a fine saw for painted trim on-site, but in a furniture shop it leaves a lot to be desired. A slider will give you infinitely better results than a kapex, but they don’t travel as nicely. As for a radial arm saw or cut off saw they aren’t as versatile as a sliding table saw. I’d love to have a big old radial arm saw for rough cutting lumber, but it would be a one trick pony for me.

That's the $10K solution to a pretty simple problem. I'm not criticizing, far from it, I'd love to have a slider. It would solve all kinds of issues on capabilities and efficiency, but it's a pretty unrealistic option for many of us, both $ and space wise. The good news is a shooting board can be made for a few dollars and in the right hands will produce joints as perfect as can be made by any means.

John

[Patrick Kane]

That's the $10K solution to a pretty simple problem. I'm not criticizing, far from it, I'd love to have a slider. It would solve all kinds of issues on capabilities and efficiency, but it's a pretty unrealistic option for many of us, both $ and space wise. The good news is a shooting board can be made for a few dollars and in the right hands will produce joints as perfect as can be made by any means.

John

OMGA's are not cheap. Kapex's are not cheap. Given a similar budget, one can do ok for themselves on the used market. Here is an example--well, two examples--i recently purchased a 1970s Martin T75 for $750 that would more than likely be a better table saw than Mark currently has, and would be a better crosscut chop saw than Mark is going to buy. That is example #1. Example #2 is years ago i sold a festool MFT, Kapex, and Jessem router table with every imaginable accessory and add on to buy a used Felder KF700. The Felder is a better panel machine than the Festool MFT. Its a better miter/crosscut saw than the Festool Kapex. The shaper with a high speed router spindle is a similar setup to the Jessem with the added bonus of being a shaper with 1-1/4" tooling. What i left off from my initial post is he might want to rethink his needs and swap out 3 tools for one better tool. I cant see the reasoning behind spending $2,500-3,000+ on a used OMGA RAS when a used slider in the $4,000+/- range will be 5 times more diverse in its utility. Nothing against the OMGA, they make great tools.