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Thread: Need help restoring old Casadei EMA KS/1400 sliding table saw. Missing fence.

  1. #1
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    Need help restoring old Casadei EMA KS/1400 sliding table saw. Missing fence.

    About a month ago I purchased an old Italian Casadei EMA KS/1400 sliding table saw for $400. It did not come with the outrigger fence so I am going to try to construct one.

    First some pictures then questions down below.

    MPS00809 (Medium).jpg

    The outrigger did not come with a fence.
    MPS00811 (Medium).jpg

    There are 4 holes in the outrigger obviously have been put there to hold a fence in the front and rear positions:
    MPS00813 (Medium).JPG

    You can see a crack in the outrigger where the adjustment screw for leveling the outrigger table goes. I am going to sand the corner round (for looks) and add a hold for the adjustment screw further in.
    MPS00818 (Medium).JPG

    The left two holes in the outrigger table have eccentric inserts for adjusting the fence square to the blade.
    MPS00869 (Medium).JPG

    MPS00866 (Medium).JPG
    My thought is to turn some round stock to make pins that fit into these holes. There is a stop in the holes to keep such a pin from falling through. The part of the pins that extend above the table I was planning on milling off half the diameter so there is a flat part of the pin.

    MPS00857 (Medium).jpg

    MPS00859 (Medium).jpg
    This is the aluminum extrusion I was planning on using for the outrigger fence. I figured I would make the pins as tall as the fence then use a couple of T nuts to fasten the fence to the pins.
    This is the best I could come up with for a replacement fence. I am open to other ideas? What do you think of the extrusion for the fence? I had considered a piece of box steel for between the two legs then fastening the aluminum extrusion to the box steel to make it easier to slide the box steel left and right but this doesn't really buy me anything as I don't see a way to make the outrigger fence mount at an angle for miters.

    I have no experience with sliding table saws or there fences. All I know has come from youtube videos. Any advice on the missing fence would be appreciated!
    Last edited by Michael Schuch; 11-23-2021 at 2:02 AM.

  2. #2
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    MPS00820 (Medium).JPG
    This is the piece that appears to be designed for cutting miters. I dropped it and broke off the corner. It is configured to mount to the table via the same sized pins as the outrigger fence. There is a tapped hole for securing this at an angle. There are two sets of these holes. One set is near the middle of the table the second set is at the end of the table at the front of the saw. It appears there were provisions for mounting a bar in this piece. The only thing I can thing of is this was to put a stop in? If the broken corner is going to cause me woes I will make a new one on the mill.

    MPS00822 (Medium).JPG
    I was all set to build a Fritz and Franz for the sliding table. But there is something missing! Can you spot what is missing?

    MPS00836 (Medium).jpg
    So I ordered this piece of aluminum track with a slot the dimensions of a miter slot to give me someway of mounting a Fritz and Franz. It sits a little proud of the table though.

    MPS00823 (Medium).JPG
    These 6 cast iron brackets hold the current aluminum sliding table to the cast iron table.

    MPS00849 (Medium).JPG

    MPS00855 (Medium).JPG
    I figure I can pull these brackets off. Mill 3/32 off these brackets the width of the T rack. So the track will sit flush with the rest of the table. I would have to then cut the aluminum table narrower by the width of the track to mount it back to the sliding cast iron table.
    What do you guy think of this idea? I am hoping that the 6 mounting brackets will hold the track ridged enough for clamping the Fritz and Franz jig as well as hold down clamps. I could add some angle iron between the brackets to give it extra rigidity if it turns out the track bends when I try to clamp stuff to it.
    I am open to thoughts and suggestions here?

    MPS00878 (Medium).jpg
    For most of my heavy machines I make a heavy machines I make a heavy duty wooden pallet so I can move them around with a pallet jack.

    MPS00879 (Medium).JPG
    I am a little torn about doing the same for this saw. The incredible length of the saw seems like it would make it very hard to balance on a pallet jack. The casters and a mobile base seem like it would be easier.

    I am not concerned about the height of the saw. I have it up on 8" x 8" blocks now and the table height is not too high for me. Anything this height or lower I believe would work well for my tall stature... unless anyone can advice otherwise?
    Last edited by Michael Schuch; 11-23-2021 at 1:49 AM.

  3. #3
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    The fence was VERY stiff when trying to move it. The fence is adjusted via a rack and pinion that is under the table. The previous owners did quite the butcher job on the adjustment handle and the locking handle.
    MPS00827 (Medium).jpg

    MPS00828 (Medium).jpg
    I removed the fence from the table and turned it over to find this bearing on this eccentric set screw. (The eccentric sets the height of the bearing / how high the fence rides above the table) The set screw was tightened all the way down and the bearing wouldn't spin. Some penetrating oil loosened up the bearing allowing it to spin. Setting the set screw and eccentric properly allows the fence to hover above the table. It now just glides over the table when adjusting the fence. The fence itself is about 40lbs in my estimation. When it is locked there is NO FLEX and no budging the fence until unlocking it. I really like this fence!

    InkedMPS00830 (Medium)_LI.jpg
    There is a peculiar flat line running across the table. After flipping the fence over I figured out this line is where the bearing on the fence travels. The table to the right of the blade has ripples cut into it from the factory. I found this interesting and assume it is to make it easier to slide stock over the table through the blade be greatly reducing the contact surface area. Very cool!


    MPS00846 (Medium).JPG
    This non-matching hand wheel came with the saw. I assume they were going to use it to replace the broken fence adjustment handle. I like this idea and should be able to turn a new shaft to make mounting this hand wheel easy.
    Those casters are rated at 900lbs each. I plan to build a mobile base for the saw using these casters.

    MPS00873 (Medium).JPG
    I am thinking of building the mobile base wider than the saw so I can marry my 10 Powermatic cabinet saw next to this EMA and use the same fence for both. I have seen this configuration else where in the forum but I don't know how well this will work or how easy it will be to make happen.
    Last edited by Michael Schuch; 11-23-2021 at 2:09 AM.

  4. #4
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    MPS00832 (Medium).JPG
    There is a handle bent up at 90 degrees that you can see here between the elevation hand wheel and the tilt hand wheel.

    MPS00835 (Medium).JPG
    This lever with some kind of bump pad on it is what that lever handle goes to. I am completely stumped on this? I can not for the life of me figure out what the purpose of this is? Any guesses?

    MPS00861 (Medium).JPG

    MPS00860 (Medium).JPG
    This is where the scoring blade mechanism would go if it had one. I have dreams of making one but I doubt that will ever happen. I would love to see some pictures of how the scoring blade is implemented on other table saws?

    1016211806e(medium).jpg
    Unloading the saw.



    I posted a lot of pictures because I wasn't able to find hardly anything on this saw on the internet. A couple of auction photos was about it. If anyone else has any version of the Italian Casadei EMA sliding table saw I would love to see some pictures of it. Especially the internals with the sliding table slid back and such. It appears newer versions of this saw have miter T tracks on the sliding table. From everything I read it seems like I will be kind of limited (no Fritz Franz jig) without the T track added.

    ABOVE ALL IF ANYONE HAS AN ORIGINAL FENCE FOR
    Casadei EMA SLIDTING TABLE SAW I WOULD LOVE TO SEE AS MANY PICTURES OF IT AS YOU COULD GIVE ME.
    Last edited by Michael Schuch; 11-23-2021 at 3:01 AM.

  5. #5
    That's a nice project for an initiation fee of only $400- congratulations! (I accidentally typed a question mark instead of an exclamation point, at least I think it was an accident).

    Seriously though, assuming the saw and carriage run true it should work out well. It sounds like you have the wherewithal to make necessary repairs and modifications. Too bad it lacks scoring, but you can get by without. I have used a Casadei shaper of similar vintage and it was quite solid.

    Your fence plan seems sound. I used to work on a Martin that had a similar eccentric bushing mount- tricky to adjust but bomber once set at 90. As I recall, the pins engaged with a slot in the bottom of the fence which allowed for sliding side to side -with the outboard pin moved the fence could be pivoted for miters. There was a clamp under the fence that pinched a support bar in the extension table. You could simply use a c clamp.

    Does your extrusion allow for mounting a tape? You will need a flip stop(s)- I have made adequate ones out of wood and butt hinges. Perhaps you could source and adapt a replacement fence.


    I like the idea of letting in a t-slot if the brackets are beefy enough. Maybe you could lower rather than notch them. Fritz and Franz don't need clamping, but clamps are a good thing. You should be able to replace the broken kipp levers easily enough. If it lacks a riving knife that would be well worth fabricating.
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 11-23-2021 at 9:55 AM.

  6. #6
    That looks like a stout saw. I have looked at EMA shapers for sale of this vintage and almost pulled the trigger a few times, but not because of lack of build quality. Looks like yours has been hacked at a few times but you seem to have the drive and tenacity to sort it out!

    I didn’t read through every post and photo yet, but I have an older Italian SCM SI15F short stroke sliding saw I got earlier this summer that has some similarities to this saw. I can post some photos of it if you like regarding the fence and how it mounts as it looks very similar to what you have with the pin holes and eccentric bushing for squaring.

    Have you put power to the saw yet and run the motor? What size motor, blade, length of stroke of the sliding table?
    Still waters run deep.

  7. #7
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    Might be worth looking into a fence system with stops, like ProScale or Felder.

    I personally would not remove thickness on those tabs, reduce the thickness of the insert.

    The handles should be pretty easy to replace, check out the Kipp catalog or McMaster and you’ll find replacements.

    I recently installed ‘leveling casters’ on my saw and super surfacer. They are rated for quite a bit of weight, roll into position turn level out using adjustable pads. Makes life easy.

    C5974E65-B9C3-412B-8388-41735B8FA034.jpg
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 11-23-2021 at 9:55 AM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #8
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    Agreed, i would buy a Felder crosscut fence in a heartbeat. i think the 72" telescoping version with one flip stop is $600. I have the current Felder crosscut fence on a 2005 KF700, and i am not displeased with it. The extrusion is very robust, and the flip stops are ok. I think the flip stops could be more robust and better designed, but still, pretty good. Ive seen enough of the crosscut fences on those saws from the 70s and 80s to tell you the Felder is several steps up from what even Martin was using back then.

    That looks like a pretty robust and well-designed machine. It's also a little crude compared to newer machines. I love old machines, but sliding table saws are one machine category where things have come a long way--and for the better--over the last 60+ years. Im not so sure you can say that about jointers, cabinet saws, drill presses etc. But, for $400+parts, this will be a great short stroke machine. One, this seems similar in footprint to the Martin T17, i have. I would have zero problems with moving it with a pallet jack. It wont tip on you.

  9. #9
    To the OP, I’m going to take a contrarian view: Make your own fence out of 80/20 or whatever. Don’t order one from us, the Italians, etc. With the supply chain and domestic freight issues we’re seeing lately, it will probably take months to get here, cost an arm and a leg in freight, and show up damaged. Sorry, just being honest. I would do everything in my power to source your components locally or domestically. Just my 2-cents and best of luck with it.

    Erik
    Felder USA Territory Representative: Central & South Texas

  10. #10
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    I'm with BOTH Erik and Brian. LOL. Either make a fence with 80/20 that's functional to your needs or go whole-hog and get a nice one that has an electronic scale. How's that for a definitive answer?
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Mitchell View Post
    That looks like a stout saw. I have looked at EMA shapers for sale of this vintage and almost pulled the trigger a few times, but not because of lack of build quality. Looks like yours has been hacked at a few times but you seem to have the drive and tenacity to sort it out!

    I didn’t read through every post and photo yet, but I have an older Italian SCM SI15F short stroke sliding saw I got earlier this summer that has some similarities to this saw. I can post some photos of it if you like regarding the fence and how it mounts as it looks very similar to what you have with the pin holes and eccentric bushing for squaring.

    Have you put power to the saw yet and run the motor? What size motor, blade, length of stroke of the sliding table?
    I would very much appreciate any pictures of your fence you could post. That would be great!

    I have plugged it into my RPC and it powered right up, ran smooth and cut nicely with the blade that came with it and a 2x4 clamped on as a fence. I have not removed the lade yet so I don't know what size arbor it has. I am hoping for a 1" arbor but am guessing it will have a 30mm arbor.

  12. #12
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    I appreciate all the feedback!

    The Feldler fence would be perfect! And I am not in a rush. I have done a ton of Googling and could not find anything near as perfect as the Felder fence! I did come across the "Original Saw Company" fence which looks to have a very similar profile to the Felder but it is only available in 4 foot sections that can be attached together. It does not look like I could get a solid 8 foot Original Saw fence.

    The Prostop is a good idea too. I looked at their table saw rip fences and several other linear digital readouts but had not looked at there fence with stops. It is definitely worth considering, I really like the DRO on the Prostop!

    Two great possibilities that I had not found on my own. I knew this group would come through for me!

    I will start with the 80-20 aluminum extrusion I currently have. I have been holding on to that piece for over 10 years waiting for the perfect project. It does not appear to have any way to easily mount a measuring tape which is a major disadvantage. The Felder and Original Saw fences appear to hold measuring tapes at an angle which would be perfect for this application. I am confident that what ever I come up with for attaching the fence to the sliding table will be less than perfect so the 80-20 will be a good project to figure out the gotchyas before investing in an expensive fence. So, Jim, I like your idea of "BOTH", LOL!

    I did plug the saw into my RPC and it powered up just fine. The blade that came with it cut very nicely using a 2x4 clamped to the sliding table as a fence. I have not found the spec plate on the motor yet, it isn't obvious where it is and the motor is not that easy to get to. I am guessing it is 5hp from the physical size but it might be bigger. I will eventually rewire it for a VFD for ease of use (not having to fire up the RPC). I have VFD's on several machines.

    Crude? Yah, it is crude. But it is also built like a tank. I think the cabinet walls are about 1/4" thick steel, or the metric equivalent. It is a very heavy saw! It is a whole class or two above my Powermatic 71 12" cabinet saw in weight and build quality. The table slides very smoothly. I haven't tested the table for alignment yet but have found adjustment spots. With my previous experience with table saw fences being a Powermatic tube fence, a Biesemeyer industrial fence, and a Vega fence the fence on this saw is a thing of beauty! I love the rack and pinion adjustment. Replacing the knobs won't be to hard and the fence floats since freeing up the bearing it rides on. My whole shop is full of old machines, the oldest being a 1947 Redstar radial arm saw that I use extensively. I am fully aware it is not up to the standards of todays sliding table saws but it is way better than adding a sliding table to a cabinet saw which I have considered several times. For my hobby use it is going to be a big step up! There is no way I would ever be able to justify a newer sliding table saw for my hobby use.

    My first task is to build a mobile base, which I have already started. This saw is going to require a complete make over of my 20' x 40' woodworking shop. The other half of the shop is 20' x 40' which I use for metal fabrication and machining. Once the saw is mobile I will be able to move machines around much easier and do some rearranging to find a good shop layout. My 12" Powermatic 71 cabinet saw will be the first to go. I am going to hang onto my Powermatic 65 10" cabinet saw. I would like to marry the 10" Powermatic and EMA slider together to conserve shop space. I do have a 12" dado set for my 16" Redstar RAS but I highly doubt it will fit the EMA so the Powermatic 65 will be worth hanging onto for Dado's if nothing else.
    Last edited by Michael Schuch; 11-24-2021 at 5:59 AM.

  13. #13
    If you want digital stops on the fence, you can either buy a Felder fence with them or buy the Felder fence without them and purchase Brian Lamb's digital stop retrofit for the Felder fence (Lamb Toolworks).

  14. #14
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    The original fence had T bolts that fit tightly in the bottom of the fence extrusion. Some of the T bolts had a spring or delrin set screw so they could be adjusted to a friction fit. That fit is necessary for the fence to repeat when the eccentric bushing is adjusted. Any looseness in the T will cause the fence to be off enough to make you crazy. If you are looking for a cheap fence and stop, a 60x60 extrusion with a Grizzly stop will work. I have had good luck buying extrusions from Framingtech as they will have odd sizes in the cut pile for a better price. The Grizzly stop is in the $100 range- or used to be before the world crashed.

    The picture of the cast piece is a quadrant. If you want to see how they work, check out the Video of Jack Forsberg's Wadkin PK. Quadrants were made for many old cast iron sliders but most were drilled specific to the machine so they are not easily swapped. I modified an old saw I have to use an eccentric bushing similar to your design and it works well with an Accurate Technologies ( Proscale people ) fence. Dave

  15. #15
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    Having no dog in this fight but ran across this saw that sold with numerous photos. If they help great, and if not well they were inexpensive....

    https://www.irsauctions.com/popups/p...593WH&id=18910

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