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Thread: Table or handheld (router use)?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NE Ohio
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    6,981
    Thanks everyone!

    I believe I'll be more comfortable doing this on the table.
    My granddad always said, :As one door closes, another opens".
    Wonderful man, terrible cabinet maker...

  2. #17
    A few things I suppose I missed or misunderstood.
    Why was climb cutting even brought up when the OP just wanted to round over some square panels and what's wrong with a table?
    I only climb cut when it's absolutely necessary and take light passes when I do. I don't know why some members would seem to bring this up their first option.
    Some of you seem to believe that a router table is inherently somehow the cause of tear out, I don't understand this.
    Just genuinely curious, I'm not trying t convince anyone to change their habits.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    WNY
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    If you use the router table in the manner recommended by every source I've ever read you will always move from right to left past the bit. You are pushing the work against the direction of rotation. It's safe, but it can lead to tear out when the bit is rotating into the grain rather than with the grain. This is the same issue when using the jointer, planer, hand plane, or nearly any cutting tool/machine. You "read the grain" to eliminate tear out with those machines/tools. But on the cabinet doors the OP asked about some of the grain on some of the edges he needs to profile will have the grain running into the bit and there is a highly likelihood of the bit causing tear out if you route in the conventional, safe, right to left direction. If you read the grain you would have to route some edges from left to right (climb cut) in order to eliminate the possibility of tear out and that is an inherently unsafe act on the router table unless you use a power feeder. However, you can climb cut in relative safety using the router hand held.

    After all the effort to make a set of cabinet doors I am not willing to risk ruining them profiling the edges, so I choose to do it with the router hand held using a climb cut. I find it safe; others may not. I absolutely would not do it climb cutting on the router table.

    John

  4. #19
    The router is carbide, new its not super sharp, the router has a small radius bit in its arc it is pulling out, in a planer jointer with a 5" head or whatever the knives are not pulling the material out in a small arc but more parrallel with the cut. Blow out is far more likely in a router bit than large radius like on a shaper say.

    The chances id use a router table are zero. Oh and did I say the chances id use a router table are zero. I never clamped a part in my life for a small trim operation with a laminate trimmer. Ive done tons it would too slow and not needed.

    Any part lost was a part lost thats why when you do volume you run a more than needed. You got good information from a number of people. You have not even said what the radius is and that makes a difference as well how big that is deeper equals more blow out as the arc of the router bit becomes more out.

    Have to go out and pee in the wind.

  5. #20
    Likely better to have said "bang my head against the wall" but cant edit head banging is more suitable.

  6. #21
    I understand your position now, thanks for taking the time.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Lake View Post
    The router is carbide, new its not super sharp, the router has a small radius bit in its arc it is pulling out, in a planer jointer with a 5" head or whatever the knives are not pulling the material out in a small arc but more parrallel with the cut. Blow out is far more likely in a router bit than large radius like on a shaper say.
    I understand what you're saying but much of that depends on how much material is removed in each pass.
    Reading grain direction that always needs to be considered no matter what tool or how the wood is cut.
    I will typically remove enough to get to near final dimensions and then do a finishing pass removing only a few thousandths. Then if I need to climb cut, it's not an issue for me.

    Thanks for your response

  8. #23
    no grain doesnt matter, as the bulk is already removed by going back wards, it doesnt tare out when its not there what is left is a straight cut compared to a pulling out cut. Bang bang bang bang

    even Mels way which I totally get would slow me down too much on volume, there is no time to ad another step and climb cutting left less material than a first time router bit would. Ive done that as well leaving .020 then a separate router for clean up.

    Sorry have to go build a router table

  9. #24
    Well I guess we all have different experiences with a router
    Work safe
    I should add, as I said earlier. I do use climb cuts, just not as my "go-to" method of cutting.
    I understand the physics, I'm just not that comfortable with it (probably I don't do it often)
    Last edited by Edward Weber; 11-19-2021 at 1:19 PM. Reason: forgot to add

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    New Westminster BC
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    2,981
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    If you use the router table in the manner recommended by every source I've ever read you will always move from right to left past the bit. You are pushing the work against the direction of rotation. It's safe, but it can lead to tear out when the bit is rotating into the grain rather than with the grain. This is the same issue when using the jointer, planer, hand plane, or nearly any cutting tool/machine. You "read the grain" to eliminate tear out with those machines/tools. But on the cabinet doors the OP asked about some of the grain on some of the edges he needs to profile will have the grain running into the bit and there is a highly likelihood of the bit causing tear out if you route in the conventional, safe, right to left direction. If you read the grain you would have to route some edges from left to right (climb cut) in order to eliminate the possibility of tear out and that is an inherently unsafe act on the router table unless you use a power feeder. However, you can climb cut in relative safety using the router hand held.

    After all the effort to make a set of cabinet doors I am not willing to risk ruining them profiling the edges, so I choose to do it with the router hand held using a climb cut. I find it safe; others may not. I absolutely would not do it climb cutting on the router table.

    John
    Which post did the OP ask "about some of the grain on some of the edges he needs to profile will have the grain running into the bit and there is a highly likelihood of the bit causing tear out if you route in the conventional, safe, right to left direction."? I must have missed that post. You have made it clear you would not climb cut on a router table, what you have not made clear is why it is unsafe. If you don't know why, there's no shame in admitting it. I have seen posts from credible sources that agree with you such as Wood Magazine, but none of them explain why other than it can throw the workpiece and draw your hand into the bit. That's a valid concern and perhaps enough reason not to do it but they don't explain why the reaction between the bit and workpiece is so different in a table vs hand held which was my question. I'm not challenging that it is unsafe just trying to understand the fundamental reason why it is unsafe. If the router is handheld and the bit grabs and throws the router I would consider that dangerous also especially if you are holding the workpiece with one hand and the router with the other, using a bit that takes a big cut etc.
    However there is this article quote from Fine Woodworking discussing climb cutting which explains how it can be safely done on a router table.
    "
    Not on a router table…
    Use a push cut when feeding stock by hand. If you climb cut, the stock can be ripped from your hand, drawing your hand into the cutter. Unless you use a jig If your workpiece is large, or locked into a heavy jig or sled of some kind, a climb cut on the router table can be made safely.

    https://www.finewoodworking.com/2011...-the-naysayers
    https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodwor.../climb-cutting

  11. #26
    good grief

  12. #27
    As long as the pieces are flat, you can do it either way. If the doors are flat panel, then you will need to be careful on the router table to avoid the angle changing when the perimeter of the door is not fully on the table.

    Either way should work. The work pieces are not real large nor real small.

    I back cut both hand held and on the router table. But when I do, I take steps to limit the amount I am cutting. Something like a 1/8 round over isn't going to be the issue that a 3/4 round over could be. Somewhat the same way, my little Bosch Colt is not going to be as hard to control as the PC 7518 motor in my router table. But the 7518 doing a 1/8 round over would not be a challenge to control either. The best way to stay in control (other than just cutting in the right direction for the router) is to take very small bites if you must back cut. I agree that sometimes the grain wants to tear out and we don't get much choice. If you must do it, regardless of how you do it, take small bites and keep a firm grip on the router and workpiece.

    I like the pictures of the PC690s. I have and use 2 of those. One used to have speed control but when that board went out, I started using a separate speed control when I use a large bit in it. Nice solid old routers.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Wenatchee. Wa
    Posts
    769
    To prevent tear out on the router table I have for years done a quarter inch or less slow climb cut on the corner that will tear out. Then routing conventionally results in no tear out and utilizes the safety and advantages of the router table.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    WNY
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    You are right. The OP didn't ask if tearout would be an issue doing the profile cuts on the router table; he asked which was the better option, router table or handheld. I said handheld and gave a reason why - tearout. If you've done much routing on the router table you will know about tearout when the grain is running the wrong way. There's just no way to avoid it on some of the edges from a group of doors if you always route right to left. You can try to minimize the problem by taking small cuts but in some cases tearout will happen anyway ruining the door.

    Your reference of the FWW article explains when it's possible to manually climb cut safely on the router table - when the workpiece is heavy, either of it's own accord or when cradled in a massive jig. This helps resist the force of the router bit that wants to shoot it out of your hands, left to right. It's a poor man's power feeder.

    When you climb cut with the router handheld it can't shoot out the workpiece if it's clamped down. You, plus the mass of the router are acting as the power feeder to resist the tendency of the bit to run along the edge of the workpiece. I find one hand operation safe with a palm router and small diameter bit and the workpiece held down on a router mat to be safe but that's just me.

    I think I've explained it the best I can. Do whatever you feel safe doing.

    John

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NE Ohio
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    6,981
    I'm hoping I can deal with tear out by using a backer board.
    The doors and drawers are simple plywood - made to match the existing 1950s ones in the kitchen now.
    My granddad always said, :As one door closes, another opens".
    Wonderful man, terrible cabinet maker...

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