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Thread: Felder PCS?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
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    Just. Unbelievably. Great. Engineering.

    The blade withdrawal system isn't a big surprise - Saw Stop's approach, although well engineered, is obviously a bit of a design kludge. I really like the PCS approach (which of course also gets to take advantage of 20 years of advancement in electromagnetic actuators and solid state switching). Anyone who thought seriously about it concluded a long time ago that non-destructive withdrawal and braking systems were possible and preferable, if you could get around Saw Stop's patents.

    But wiring a saw blade to both generate a sufficiently consistent field around itself, and to detect the back effect on the control circuits from a body part several millimeters from the blade is just outstanding, and at least to me, a bit unexpected. I'm really impressed.

    Unfortunately for me, a kappa 550 with PCS would cost more than my entire tool inventory, but my, I do want one.
    Last edited by Steve Demuth; 11-16-2021 at 2:47 PM.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    I've considered Felder when I was in the market due to the PCS but its only available on the Kappa 550, a single tilt machine. its not available on the Kappa 590, maybe because the mechanism to swing both side prevented PCS...

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Lee View Post
    its not available on the Kappa 590, maybe because the mechanism to swing both side prevented PCS...
    Correct: Not enough room in the chassis on a two-way tilt machine to accommodate the PCS assembly.

    Erik
    Felder USA Territory Representative: Central & South Texas

  4. #19
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    Apr 2016
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    I also think there is maybe some unfortunate coincidental acronym overlap being used here. Felder is marketing their Preventative Contact System (PCS) whereas SawStop sells a model of their saw with the PCS moniker, but in that case it stands for Professional Cabinet Saw (PCS). Or in other words for Felder that acronym is used to describe the safety mechanism, but for SawStop it has nothing to do with the safety system and is instead indicating that the saw falls in the middle of their product lineup.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kanof View Post
    I also think there is maybe some unfortunate coincidental acronym overlap being used here...
    We (US team) always kind of scratch our heads at Austria's marketing. If any one remembers, Chevy tried to introduce the Nova to the Mexico at one point, except that none of the Americans realized that "Nova" in Spanish means "No va", or "It doesn't go". LOL

    Erik
    Felder USA Territory Representative: Central & South Texas

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    We (US team) always kind of scratch our heads at Austria's marketing. If any one remembers, Chevy tried to introduce the Nova to the Mexico at one point, except that none of the Americans realized that "Nova" in Spanish means "No va", or "It doesn't go". LOL

    Erik
    That's a debunked urban legend... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevro...a#Urban_legend
    And there was trouble, taking place...

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Wurster View Post
    Why you gotta' ruin my good stories, bro?
    Felder USA Territory Representative: Central & South Texas

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Why you gotta' ruin my good stories, bro?
    Ha ha! Hey, sorry, man!
    And there was trouble, taking place...

  9. #24
    So, how does Felder do it without violating SawStop's patents?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Wolfy View Post
    So, how does Felder do it without violating SawStop's patents?
    It's pretty interesting, actually.

    A patent, of course, must prescribe a mechanism, not just an effect. The detection mechanism covered in Saw Stop's patents relies on contact with the blade causing a change in the charge carried by the saw blade. Felder's patent relies on detection of a change in the frequency of the periodic capacitance between the blade and a static electrode. caused by proximity of a body part to the blade, rather than contact. The capacitance is periodic due to the periodic passage of the saw blade teeth past the second electrode. Introduction of a different dialectric material in the vicinity of the blade changes the periodicity, which Felder's electronics detects. Saw Stop's mechanism for stopping and removing the blade relies on a the fuse mechanism in their cartridge, and the momentum of the blade causing the withdrawal. Felder's mechanism is completely different. It doesn't stop the blade, but rather clamps the blade electromagnetically in the operating position for normal operation, and then turns the clamping mechanism into a force to withdraw the blade by reversing the polarity of one of the magnets when a detection event occurs.

    Now, I'm not a patent expert, and I certainly haven't read through the hundreds of patents Saw Stop has applied for and received, but I assume Felder has, and is confident that the mechanisms they use are not anticipated by the broad language of Saw Stop patents. It certainly seems so to me, from the ones I have read.

  11. #26
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    How much does a saw with this system cost?

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Demuth View Post
    It's pretty interesting, actually.

    Now, I'm not a patent expert, and I certainly haven't read through the hundreds of patents Saw Stop has applied for and received, but I assume Felder has, and is confident that the mechanisms they use are not anticipated by the broad language of Saw Stop patents. It certainly seems so to me, from the ones I have read.
    Thank you! Sounds complex, since I don't understand half of the terms. But if they're selling them here, I trust that the Austrians have done their research, too. I think Festool now owns SawStop, so in turn, maybe their patents? I wonder how long until they develop a tablesaw in turn...

  13. #28
    Interesting thread! This subject is of particular interest to me. Long story short, I developed a dynamic, electronic anti-kickback system a while ago and have made a small attempt at marketing it. It works and is geared towards new table saws. It would work exceptionally well with the blade retract and dynamic brake setups in the innovative new saws on the market. I have named it AKS (Anti-Kickback system). So here is a video for your entertainment, demonstrating the AKS system off and on (with results). Enjoy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aokyS-p8MM&t=3s

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Wolfy View Post
    I think Festool now owns SawStop, so in turn, maybe their patents? I wonder how long until they develop a tablesaw in turn...
    The parent company that owns Festool also owns Sawstop, Tanos, etc. "Festool" doesn't own Sawstop. It's unlikely that you'll see a Festool branded table saw with SS tech, IMHO...it's not what they do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Frank View Post
    How much does a saw with this system cost?
    "A lot"....
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  15. #30
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    The parent company that owns Festool also owns Sawstop, Tanos, etc. "Festool" doesn't own Sawstop. It's unlikely that you'll see a Festool branded table saw with SS tech, IMHO...it's not what they do.
    Festool does produce the TKS 80 EBS, which seems to be a jobsite-style saw with SawStop tech built into it: https://www.festool.com/products/sem...1---tks-80-ebs

    It doesn't list a price there (only has a Wish List option, so not sure about planned availability), but it appears to be available on their UK site for under 2000.
    And there was trouble, taking place...

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