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Thread: Tearout on a solid Oak Top

  1. #1
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    Tearout on a solid Oak Top

    I'm building a pair of small cabinets, and I put together a solid Oak top. I planned on mating an edge piece on all four sides a bit of contrast, using some figured end grain Oak.
    To make a little design "break", I decided to plane a little 1/16" relief cut in the top edges, and attach the Oak border. Just like a plywood top, except with solid wood.
    I carefully set up my Veritas Jack Rabbet plane, and proceeded to plane with the grain. Yes the spur is down. Even so, I was getting a little "fuzz"; once I began to plane across the grain, the tear-out reared it's head something fierce.
    I could certainly (and much faster) set up the table saw, but I'm curious about why a plane with the nicker down isn't slicing the grain.
    Young enough to remember doing it;
    Old enough to wish I could do it again.

  2. #2
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    The nicker is not working. Not sharp, not the correct shape, not the correct depth. Set incorrectly. How about a photo or two? it is so much easier if we know exactly what we are dealing with

  3. #3
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    Knife the shoulder deeply, pare a tiny v-groove with a chisel (in the waste of course), knife again, pare a little bit more. You're going about a sixteenth deep, total. Then cut the rabbet, the visible arris will have been formed by your knife and chisel work.

    Theoretically the nickers ought to work, especially if they're little knives or a wheel (not the cloverleaf junk on some planes). I still don't trust any of them though, and certainly not on oak. You can knife a far cleaner line than the nicker on any plane will ever cut.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 11-03-2021 at 10:55 AM.

  4. #4
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    To recap what Mark said, photos help.

    Nickers work best if a few backwards strokes are taken before setting the iron to the work. They also work better when sharpened (even the cloverleaf design). It also helps to sharpen them with a curve (camber?) to slice in both directions. A dull nicker will tear up the wood.

    Using a knife ahead of planing will also help.

    A rabbet plane needs to have the blade set up in a way that it can cut all the way to the outside edge of the plane but not beyond. My technique works for me, some others think it is crazy and would never work. Some have PMed me to say they have tried it and it works…

    So - YMMV!!!.png

    When setting the blade for cutting a rabbet my rabbet plane is held with the side of the plane to be against the wall of the rabbet is on the bench or a piece of hardwood. The opposite side of the plane and blade is pressed down. This will set the edge of the blade flush or very slightly proud with the side of the plane.

    Another thought is the edge of blade in the rabbet plane should have a slight relief bevel. It doesn't need to be super sharp but it shouldn't be rounded.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #5
    There needs to be clearance between the nicker and the iron. You can probably get away with having the nicker 1/16 farther out than the iron, but all that is needed is a little daylight. It sounds like your cutting iron is too far out to the right, rendering the nicker ineffective.

  6. #6
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    Thanks to all.
    I went back and looked at the problem in daylight (and rested).
    Yes, although I THOUGHT the nicker was below the bed, alas, when I made certain it was, the plane cut much more cleanly. My bad.
    I’m going to do a few more tests before I do all the other sides.
    I also thought that having the nickers would save one step. I see that taking Charles’ suggestion will save me a lot more time.
    Thanks again, all.

  7. #7
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    Using the same plane this is what i try for. Nicker set in line with the plane side or very slightly protruding. Blade set with a business card spacing it inside of the plane side. Everything sharp. I want that nicker to cut the wall not the edge of the blade. Pull back on the first stroke to check the nicker depth. In oak the blade edge will get you or even the back edge of the blade slot if the nicker is not just right. Nicker cuts the wall all the way blade cuts the bottom. I’ve been successful with this for the most part.
    Jim

  8. #8
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    The only nickers I've ever seen that can be sharpened as sharp as a good marking knife, and that appear to be made with decent tool steel, are the little knives that were featured on the old Record 050C (and perhaps other Record models I've never handled). Old woodies certainly have (had) a quality knife with plenty of length that could be sharped to a very keen edge but they often come with other issues that can be frustrating to sort out -- not the knives but the planes themselves.

    Cloverleaf nickers are a complete joke. If you've had success with them, great, but rest assured the day is coming when you won't and you'll get a big, ugly tear that will be visible in the completed project.

    I use a Woden rebate plane that's very similar to a Record 778. The Woden uses a wheel cutter (like a wheel marking gauge) to score the shoulder and it works perfectly well. The wheel is easy to keep sharp. I still get things started with a marking knife when running something cross-grain. The wheel has a little clip out of it so it can be positioned to not be engaged in a long grain rebate.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 11-07-2021 at 8:23 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    Using the same plane this is what i try for. Nicker set in line with the plane side or very slightly protruding. Blade set with a business card spacing it inside of the plane side.
    To clarify, in the instructions for the skew rabbet (not jack), it seemed to imply that the blade should be slightly proud of the plane side.

    As a new owner groom the seconds sale, did I misunderstand the instructions, misunderstand your comment, or are the skew and Jack rabbet planes configured differently?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Liebling View Post
    To clarify, in the instructions for the skew rabbet (not jack), it seemed to imply that the blade should be slightly proud of the plane side.

    As a new owner groom the seconds sale, did I misunderstand the instructions, misunderstand your comment, or are the skew and Jack rabbet planes configured differently?
    Everyone seems to have a different idea of how much "slightly proud of the plane side" should be. If it is past the nicker it can cause a rough wall on the rabbet. My method of pressing the blade and plane down flat on a bench appears to make the blade just barely proud of the side. Pressing it down with the plane laying on a couple of business card would likely make the side of the blade proud by 0.005" to a little more than 0.010" depending on the caliper of the card stock.

    If drawing the plane backwards on the stock leaves a clean line, the problem would more likely be with the blade protruding too far.

    If the nicker isn't leaving a clean edge the problem would be with the nicker.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #11
    ill probably open a thread on this down the line, I have the veritas rabbeting plane - it is the most frustrating plane to set up I have ever used. every time I get the blade depth of cut even, the point of the skew blade doesn't stick out enough to align with the nickers, when it does align with the nickers, I end up with an uneven blade projection. then even if everything is good, if I don't hold it properly I end up with a rabbet that is not parallel to the face of the board. I wish there was a set up jig I could use. bottom line is, I feel your pain

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assaf Oppenheimer View Post
    ill probably open a thread on this down the line, I have the veritas rabbeting plane - it is the most frustrating plane to set up I have ever used. every time I get the blade depth of cut even, the point of the skew blade doesn't stick out enough to align with the nickers, when it does align with the nickers, I end up with an uneven blade projection. then even if everything is good, if I don't hold it properly I end up with a rabbet that is not parallel to the face of the board. I wish there was a set up jig I could use. bottom line is, I feel your pain
    One of my rabbet planes was like this. The problem was the blade's edge wasn't square.

    A different block plane had a similar problem. It was caused by the blade bed at the mouth was uneven side to side with a slight slope.

    This is an old post but further down there are links to the two planes above > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373

    Fettling can be fun.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  13. #13
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    Afraid I won't be much help....as all I use are a Ward's No. 78...or the Stanley No. 45. Recently a pair of Type 1 Sargent (Craftsman) No. 79s have arrived in the shop. ALL use the 3 lobed nicker.

    Note: when going WITH the grain, raise or remove the nicker. Otherwise, that rebate wall will become a staircase....

    IF the one lobe on the knicker is getting too short...you CAN sharpen up another of the lobes, and use that.

    You can drag the plane backwards a couple times to "knife" a line....and then use a sharp knife to deepen the cut. I also tend to use a fine saw out at the end of the cut....gets rid of any "blow outs" where the plane comes out at the edge...saw down to the depth of the rebate.

    The "jig" is in how you hold the plane to the work....YMMV
    A Planer? I'm the Planer, and this is what I use

  14. #14
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    I have 0 experience with the skew Rabbet. I don’t know for sure but i would guess that with my set up with the business card between the plane and the bench and the blade hitting the card the blade is very slightly inside the plane side maybe .001 to .002. This is with a Jack rabbet. At least for me the blade (or iron) contacting hard against the wall of the rabbet makes for problems. To me its not a cutting edge like a side rabbet plane is.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Pallas View Post
    I have 0 experience with the skew Rabbet. I don’t know for sure but i would guess that with my set up with the business card between the plane and the bench and the blade hitting the card the blade is very slightly inside the plane side maybe .001 to .002. This is with a Jack rabbet. At least for me the blade (or iron) contacting hard against the wall of the rabbet makes for problems. To me its not a cutting edge like a side rabbet plane is.
    My understanding of this method was to have the plane body lifted by the business card and the side of the blade being pressed against the surface supporting everything. This would theoretically be setting the blade beyond the side of the plane by the thickness of the business card.

    It could also be setting the edge of the blade outside of the reach of the nicker.

    BTW, the OP seems to have solved the problem. Though others may find this thread very useful in the future.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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