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Thread: Buying used machinery

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Inkerman, Ontario, Canada
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    1,389
    I have bought and sold a lot of machines over the years, most work out well.

    I have had many transactions, a few that didn't work out, so it's not that rare.

    One i lost $10,000 on a eBay deal about 15 or more years ago.
    I bid on a laser, someone out bid me. I got an email from "eBay" two days later saying the highbidder backed out and i could have the laser for what i had bid if i was still interested.
    I sent the money as instructed.
    No response.
    Contacted eBay, they said that they never sent me any emails.
    I contacted the guy that had the laser advertised, he said the laser was sold to the highbidder.
    So I was conned! Welcome to eBay!
    The money was sent through Western Union ( a money laundering company for crooks)
    eBay did nothing, Zero!
    The police did nothing! Not true really, they did tell me they they weren't going to send two cops across state to arrest the guy that took my money, saying that he probably was just the mule for a Russian organized criminal group. Oh and told me to fuck off and stop pestering them.
    Western Union, did do something, the hid the identity of the person that took my money, and told me that it was the law. They also told me that they same guy had collected $30,000 that week from other people he was robbing.
    They also told me that they had video cameras in the store, so the guy was on video. They of course wouldn't give the video to me ( against the law) and the police weren't interested in going to get it.

    So if you are not familiar with the justice system...this is how it works.

    I got lots more if you need.



    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post
    I've done a number of transactions for fairly large sums of money that have in almost all cases worked out perfectly. I tend to communicate enough so that I feel comfortable, backing off if there is anything about the arrangement that seems "off". I'm sure I could get scammed, but I'm not willing to go through life with a high level of suspicion of my fellow humans. I don't do deals where I couldn't afford to take the loss if the deal went south.

    I had one transaction for a couple thousand dollars where I think the seller was simply incompetent, or perhaps a potential (but incompetent) thief. Our local police department talked to his local police department, who talked to him and I got my money back.

  2. #17
    Okay you win,

    Im very sorry to hear that. Serve and protect. Where is Denzil when we need him. Been in some of the systems you cant fight and done okay. If you win you didnt win. Takes so much energy, its all set up to make anyone give up, some almost set up to let it be that way.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Wayland, MA
    Posts
    3,654
    Western Union would be one of those red flag tip-offs to abandon the deal. As is anyone who asks you to do something outside the Ebay architecture. Always read the detailed email headers to see whether the email is coming from the claimed source, and never reply outside the messaging system that you access by logging into the website-- never click a link that someone sends you.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Cambridge Vermont
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    Even regular Paypal isn't fool proof. The way it works is they have your bank account information and when you sign up you agree that they can get pull money out of your bank account. The problem comes when a seller opens an account and sets up a Paypal account linked to it to transfer the money to. If the seller can transfer the money and withdraw it before Paypal tries to get it back there's not much that can be done by Paypal. To open a bank account you need information that police can track so it's not worth doing for a small amount.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Madison, Wisconsin
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post
    I've done a number of transactions for fairly large sums of money that have in almost all cases worked out perfectly. I tend to communicate enough so that I feel comfortable, backing off if there is anything about the arrangement that seems "off". I'm sure I could get scammed, but I'm not willing to go through life with a high level of suspicion of my fellow humans. I don't do deals where I couldn't afford to take the loss if the deal went south.

    I had one transaction for a couple thousand dollars where I think the seller was simply incompetent, or perhaps a potential (but incompetent) thief. Our local police department talked to his local police department, who talked to him and I got my money back.

    +1 I have also bought many pieces of machinery/tools remotely with no issues. I think the key is sizing up the seller. If they are at all cagey or uncommunicative, walk away. Honest sellers will usually go out their way to help.

    I recently bought a $10,000 used car from 2000 miles away, sight unseen and it worked out well. Because it was so much money, I used a third party escrow company (escrow.com). Both buyer and seller have to agree to the terms. I deposited the money into the escrow account and the money was not transferred to the seller until the item was delivered. Only cost a couple hundred dollars for the service.
    Last edited by Bob Falk; 10-26-2021 at 9:57 AM.

  6. #21
    My 2-cents: Folks selling used woodworking machinery tend to be pretty honest and I would be reasonably trusting of the deal. That being said, the real challenge these days is avoiding freight damage, due to the general lack of experienced CDL truck drivers. All my biggest headaches lately are from delivery damage. In my opinion, no matter how sweet the deal seems, if I was unable to personally go and pick up the item, wouldn't be interested. Again, just my 2-cents. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  7. #22
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    Jun 2014
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    Western PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    My 2-cents: Folks selling used woodworking machinery tend to be pretty honest and I would be reasonably trusting of the deal. That being said, the real challenge these days is avoiding freight damage, due to the general lack of experienced CDL truck drivers. All my biggest headaches lately are from delivery damage. In my opinion, no matter how sweet the deal seems, if I was unable to personally go and pick up the item, wouldn't be interested. Again, just my 2-cents. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

    Erik
    I agree. Trust your fellow citizens, 99% of them are good people. This natural distrust of people really upsets me. Im not telling you to go out and do reckless things, but i think people automatically assume distrust over trust. For example, if i had a flat and someone stopped to help me on the side of the road, my first thought would not be, "this person is going to rob, rape, and murder me". For a lot of people, that would be their first reaction.

    I agree with everyone else, Paypal business transaction should be pretty safe for you. Unfortunately, it doesnt cover you from missing parts, damage, wear n tear. That is where you need to be intelligent, ask the right questions, and finally, sack up. I hate to say it, but the latter part is the important part of any used machine purchase. When buying used, you dont have the privilege and benefit of a Felder customer support person holding your hand and assuring you everything is going to be all right. That is why you are saving potentially thousands by buying used. Its on the Buyer to shoulder the risk and figure things out for themselves. I dont mean for that to come across as being a jerk, but a lot of people buy used things, find a bolt missing, and then come online to a forum to say they got screwed by the Seller. Unless you are buying from a third party machine seller, id probably assume this machine is going to need a few misc. parts etc. Account all of that into your offer.

    I will fly in the face of conventional wisdom with my experiences. I have sent money orders for sevarl thousand, paypal friends and family, venmo to ushippers to pull cash and pay buyers, and several personal checks to sellers. Those are all risky things to do!! The seller can absolutely pocket your $4,000, and theres really nothing you can do about it. Sue someone for the $4,000? Sure, your attorney fees will be that much or more. I guess you could drive the 8-10 hours to go sucker punch them at their doorstep, but that is about the extent of your options if the person is a crook. However, the above is necessary if you want the deals, and in my experience, guys that run small shops arent crooks. Most of the time i end up talking machines with them for 30 minutes prior to sending the money. Each one of those examples, i ended up with the tool or machine from hundreds/thousands of miles away for shockingly low prices. More risk, more reward. Educate yourself on the machine you are buying, talk through potential downfalls with people that know more than you about the machine, and then determine if the risk is worth the savings from buying new. I havent been burned yet, and maybe its because im lucky. Its also because i go into things eyes wide open, and if i go in half-blind, then my offer to the seller will be extremely aggressive. If you buy a tool for scrap value, then you really cant lose, and thats the important part.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Madison, Wisconsin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Kane View Post
    I agree. Trust your fellow citizens, 99% of them are good people. This natural distrust of people really upsets me. Im not telling you to go out and do reckless things, but i think people automatically assume distrust over trust. For example, if i had a flat and someone stopped to help me on the side of the road, my first thought would not be, "this person is going to rob, rape, and murder me". For a lot of people, that would be their first reaction.

    I agree with everyone else, Paypal business transaction should be pretty safe for you. Unfortunately, it doesnt cover you from missing parts, damage, wear n tear. That is where you need to be intelligent, ask the right questions, and finally, sack up. I hate to say it, but the latter part is the important part of any used machine purchase. When buying used, you dont have the privilege and benefit of a Felder customer support person holding your hand and assuring you everything is going to be all right. That is why you are saving potentially thousands by buying used. Its on the Buyer to shoulder the risk and figure things out for themselves. I dont mean for that to come across as being a jerk, but a lot of people buy used things, find a bolt missing, and then come online to a forum to say they got screwed by the Seller. Unless you are buying from a third party machine seller, id probably assume this machine is going to need a few misc. parts etc. Account all of that into your offer.

    I will fly in the face of conventional wisdom with my experiences. I have sent money orders for sevarl thousand, paypal friends and family, venmo to ushippers to pull cash and pay buyers, and several personal checks to sellers. Those are all risky things to do!! The seller can absolutely pocket your $4,000, and theres really nothing you can do about it. Sue someone for the $4,000? Sure, your attorney fees will be that much or more. I guess you could drive the 8-10 hours to go sucker punch them at their doorstep, but that is about the extent of your options if the person is a crook. However, the above is necessary if you want the deals, and in my experience, guys that run small shops arent crooks. Most of the time i end up talking machines with them for 30 minutes prior to sending the money. Each one of those examples, i ended up with the tool or machine from hundreds/thousands of miles away for shockingly low prices. More risk, more reward. Educate yourself on the machine you are buying, talk through potential downfalls with people that know more than you about the machine, and then determine if the risk is worth the savings from buying new. I havent been burned yet, and maybe its because im lucky. Its also because i go into things eyes wide open, and if i go in half-blind, then my offer to the seller will be extremely aggressive. If you buy a tool for scrap value, then you really cant lose, and thats the important part.

    Well said Patrick!

  9. #24
    Wow- thanks for all the incredible info- should edit/condense/post this as a blog for anyone else seeking advice for a safe, secure used machinery transaction. I really like the escrow/contract idea!

    Meanwhile,
    I have done some informal "background checking" on the web, and found it is actually another cabinet shop owner.
    Have arranged to have a friend pick the machine up and exchange payment in person, at a neutral, public place (just like craigslist advises)
    Saving on packing (+ for seller) and shipping, which I'll share with my agent (+ they needed a paid trip out of town) and I save a significant amount for a low-mileage machine.
    I'll post when transaction is complete, but feeling much more confident with the arrangement at this point. Hope others have gleaned some helpful insights here as well - just seeking a reasonably formulated process that results in a fair, secure transaction for all parties involved.
    Wish us luck!

    jeff

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Exeter, CA
    Posts
    691
    Most of my big old Delta and Rockwell machines I bought used and rehabbed them. However, I have always looked at them in person, made a decision, paid them and took the machine. Know this doesn't answer your question but its the way I do it. I always like to look at the setting they are in and talk with the previous owner. Randy
    Randy Cox
    Lt Colonel, USAF (ret.)

  11. #26
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    Western PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Roltgen View Post
    Wow- thanks for all the incredible info- should edit/condense/post this as a blog for anyone else seeking advice for a safe, secure used machinery transaction. I really like the escrow/contract idea!

    Meanwhile,
    I have done some informal "background checking" on the web, and found it is actually another cabinet shop owner.
    Have arranged to have a friend pick the machine up and exchange payment in person, at a neutral, public place (just like craigslist advises)
    Saving on packing (+ for seller) and shipping, which I'll share with my agent (+ they needed a paid trip out of town) and I save a significant amount for a low-mileage machine.
    I'll post when transaction is complete, but feeling much more confident with the arrangement at this point. Hope others have gleaned some helpful insights here as well - just seeking a reasonably formulated process that results in a fair, secure transaction for all parties involved.
    Wish us luck!

    jeff
    Nice, that is getting creative, Jeff. Precisely how a buyer needs to operate if they want to buy high quality things on the used market.

    Other than it being on Woodweb, what are you buying? Something small, i take it?

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Phoenix AZ Area
    Posts
    2,505
    How large is the machine? I've been burned by an an online machine auction company Machinery Max not properly palletizing a large expensive machine. As a result the pallet broke and collapsed and the machine fell over in transit and it was destroyed. Nobody takes responsibility. Claims adjusters from two parties determined it was Machinery Max's fault. Machinery Max's response from their VP. "Stalemate" in other words sue us. My lesson. I no longer buy a machine where I am not able to be there to ensure it's properly prepared and I no hire professional riggers to load.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
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    Be careful, and pick it up in person. I’ve had a few machines shipped and it is always nerve wracking. Luckily most have been well crated, the Wadkin DM and Ulmia as example were just beautifully crated and properly bolted to their pallets. That’s not always the case.

    Sonetimes you get that and sometimes you get a ‘running’ machine in which every rubber part is dead, the wiring has been hacked to bits, internal parts poorly modified, hidden damage carefully undocumented in the many photos you receive and nothing but excuses when it arrives. When I bought the Maka I knew I was in for a restoration, a more recent purchase however seemed promising but required considerably more work than expected. That’s the risk you take.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Inkerman, Ontario, Canada
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    Patrick, either you haven't made many purchases or you have been exceptionally lucky!

    People contemplating buying and shipping used machinery need to know what can and does happen occasionally.

    I have made a lot of purchases from all across Canada, The USA, Japan, Germany, England, France etc.. Most have gone well, most people are good and decent people, BUT there are many things that can go and do go wrong, when that happens you get to see a different side to things. For the most part everyone, slams the door in your face and walks away, and you will find yourself alone with a damaged, broken, worthless machine, you will be out thousands of dollars, and stressed out and frustrated, and angry talking to the people involved, who will all refuse liability. You will have limited options, hire a lawyer, which will cost you a bunch of money and take maybe a year to settle out of court for half of what you are owed. Suck it up and take the loss and move on.

    Beside the example that I gave of what happened to me nearly 20 years ago, when I was new to dealing with internet transactions, cons, fake emails, and Western union, eBay, the police etc... I had a good education and avoided that type of situation happening again, but still, Stuff happens and you are left holding the bag.

    Machines get damaged in transit, the transport company will deny and delay, and drag it out for a year hoping that you will go away, all the while that you are paying your lawyer. Then they will make a settlement offer to cover your lawyers fee and give you a fraction of what the machine was worth. Your lawyer will recommend you accept.

    When selling online some people post old photos of machines, when they were newer and in better condition, you get quite a surprise when the machines arrive. That is misrepresenting a product plain and simple; Ever try to get your money back? Nobody wants to refund you.

    I have purchased several machines that arrived damaged, and like I said, I can give you lots of examples. And in case you think that it's just me, here is one from this forum from last year.

    A used machine shipping nightmare

    To make a very long story short, I now have a used woodworking machine, about 2100+ pounds in weight, laying upside down in the middle of my driveway with scattered parts here and there, after being dropped from a lift-gate/truck bed 6 feet above ground. The logistics company that I contracted with to have this machine shipped is not responding to my email/call. The freight broker, who contracted with the logistic company, essentially told me that he can't help and that it is my "problem because it is in my driveway," but he will contact the logistic company to tell that company to "step up." He wanted me to ask a couple of guy friends to flip it over since he could do it himself if he was standing in my driveway. The driver left in a hurry after the disaster and pointed his finger at the broker as the responsible party.

    So, who is responsible in this particular situation? My contractual agreement is with the logistic company, so I think they should be taking responsibility. Or is it the freight company that dropped the crate in my driveway upside down after a 6-foot drop? Though, I did not enter into contract with the broker or the delivery company.

    My guts feeling is that this is as good as it is going to get in this particular case. I will end up writing off the purchase price, crate fee, freight fee, and all associated costs of erecting the machine. I have not even considered the cost of fixing the machine, if it is indeed salvageable.

    SW



    Below is a crate delivered to my shop with a $20,000 machine in.
    The crate has two forklift holes in it.
    The machine was damaged.
    The trucking company ( one of the largest in North america) denied responsibility. ( The machine was offloaded at eight depots while crossing the country.)
    The seller denied responsibility.
    The trucking company supplied me with a copy of the BOL signed by the driver and the seller stating that the crate was damaged when it was picked up.
    The seller supplied me with his identical signed copy, with no mention of damage at all.

    Someone lied, and committed fraud.

    Eventually the trucking company settled out of court.
    The machine sat in the crate for almost a year waiting to get the case settled.

    It is at times like this that you realize the claims adjusters job is to Deny, Delay as long as possible, and if they absolutely can't get rid of you, negotiate the minimum payout that they can get away with.
    And like I said, I have lots more stories.

    forklift.JPG


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Kane View Post
    I agree. Trust your fellow citizens, 99% of them are good people. This natural distrust of people really upsets me. Im not telling you to go out and do reckless things, but i think people automatically assume distrust over trust. For example, if i had a flat and someone stopped to help me on the side of the road, my first thought would not be, "this person is going to rob, rape, and murder me". For a lot of people, that would be their first reaction.

    I agree with everyone else, Paypal business transaction should be pretty safe for you. Unfortunately, it doesnt cover you from missing parts, damage, wear n tear. That is where you need to be intelligent, ask the right questions, and finally, sack up. I hate to say it, but the latter part is the important part of any used machine purchase. When buying used, you dont have the privilege and benefit of a Felder customer support person holding your hand and assuring you everything is going to be all right. That is why you are saving potentially thousands by buying used. Its on the Buyer to shoulder the risk and figure things out for themselves. I dont mean for that to come across as being a jerk, but a lot of people buy used things, find a bolt missing, and then come online to a forum to say they got screwed by the Seller. Unless you are buying from a third party machine seller, id probably assume this machine is going to need a few misc. parts etc. Account all of that into your offer.

    I will fly in the face of conventional wisdom with my experiences. I have sent money orders for sevarl thousand, paypal friends and family, venmo to ushippers to pull cash and pay buyers, and several personal checks to sellers. Those are all risky things to do!! The seller can absolutely pocket your $4,000, and theres really nothing you can do about it. Sue someone for the $4,000? Sure, your attorney fees will be that much or more. I guess you could drive the 8-10 hours to go sucker punch them at their doorstep, but that is about the extent of your options if the person is a crook. However, the above is necessary if you want the deals, and in my experience, guys that run small shops arent crooks. Most of the time i end up talking machines with them for 30 minutes prior to sending the money. Each one of those examples, i ended up with the tool or machine from hundreds/thousands of miles away for shockingly low prices. More risk, more reward. Educate yourself on the machine you are buying, talk through potential downfalls with people that know more than you about the machine, and then determine if the risk is worth the savings from buying new. I havent been burned yet, and maybe its because im lucky. Its also because i go into things eyes wide open, and if i go in half-blind, then my offer to the seller will be extremely aggressive. If you buy a tool for scrap value, then you really cant lose, and thats the important part.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Modesto, CA, USA
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    9,876
    Police departments have set up a corners of their parking lots for folks to do the online transition/delivery/payment. It should be well lit with continuous recorded video surveillance. They only look at the video if someone complains. I bet a lot of the shady types will not even come to a police station to meet you.
    Bill D

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