Buying used machinery

[Patrick Kane]

Mark, you are kind of in a different league than the rest of us. Not that i know your business, but you strike me as a part-time machinery dealer. Unfortunately, the laws of statistics are against you that you are going to have more horror stories to report, because you have purchased 20x more machines than me or anyone else. If you read the last half of my post, i agree with your points. IF something goes wrong, then its effed. That is the game you play when you buy used stuff. Joe's story haunts me everytime i look at a used tool 500 miles away. That is a turd situation, and there is no legal course out of it.

[Mark Hennebury]

Mark, you are kind of in a different league than the rest of us. Not that i know your business, but you strike me as a part-time machinery dealer. Unfortunately, the laws of statistics are against you that you are going to have more horror stories to report, because you have purchased 20x more machines than me or anyone else. If you read the last half of my post, i agree with your points. IF something goes wrong, then its effed. That is the game you play when you buy used stuff. Joe's story haunts me everytime i look at a used tool 500 miles away. That is a turd situation, and there is no legal course out of it.

Hi Patrick,
Yes I buy and sell a few machines, I am just a one man show, so It's not a large number of machines at all.

When you are dealing with big corporations, they have the bottom line as their priority, and they play the game, there are no ethics involved.
Individuals or small business where you are dealing with a single person making the decisions and they often have a moveable goalpost.

There are people with complete integrity and people with none, and both may be in the minority. The majority may be those inbetweeners, whose integrity is flexible. They are the ones who do the math, the cost /benefit analysis before committing to an action, they are proficient at justifying their actions.


The thing is there are lots of ways that things can go sideways, ways that you would never imagine, people, even seemingly nice decent people, can do things that are not nice when they want to. I am not talking about crooks and con artists, just regular people, Some make a deal, then change their mind! like children. Back out of deals, sell the machine to someone else if they get a better offer, or just change their minds and decide to keep the machine, I have had it happen numerous times, Even after I have paid in full for the machine. Some keep parts or sell them to someone else. I have had machines arrived damaged, broken, dropped, tipped over, crushed with forklifts etc, with parts missing, or stolen, new machines and used ones. I have purchased machines based on the photos only to find when the machine arrives that the photos were taken 15 or 20 years ago and the machine looks nothing like that any more.

I have customers call me all the time wanting me to find the a machine for them, So I hunt them down a machine make a deal, contact my customer, send them all of the information and photos, then after all of the work I have done and all of the education that i have given them about the different machines and options etc, they go on the internet and track it down with the information that I have provided them, and call the owner and try to cut me out of the deal. A guy did that to me with a machine that I found for him in Germany, The company in Germany told me that he contacted them trying to buy the machine direct from them, they refused to sell him the machine, and told him that they had an agreement with me. A great company to do business with! Not so nice of a customer.


I purchased a machine at an auction, when the machine arrived, a box of parts were missing, turns out the rigging company had loaded them in a container for Indonesia. The rigger offered to buy the machine off me for what i had paid for it! I said I wanted to keep the machine, he said that he would get my parts back. It took six months or more but he got my parts back and shipped them to me. You can't get better than that. A great individual to do business with!

There are good honorable people that value their integrity above profit, and there are people who say and think they are have integrity, right up until their is a price to pay, then they rationalize their way out of it. And I am sure that if you asked their friends and family, they would swear that they are great people.

A guy called me up and asked me if I was interested in buying his machine he was asking $5000, We settled on $4000 USD, I went into town did the bank wire transfer. Called one of my customers that had asked me to look out for one of those machines for him and sold it to him for $5000, He did the bank wire transfer to my bank, Done deal! Over the next couple of days while arranging transportation, The original seller emailed me saying that he changed his mind, wasn’t going to sell me the machine, and sent my money back. I lost $1000 sale, waisted my time, and cannot provide my customer with the machine that he has just paid for. Lucky that my customer was a good guy, and was willing to wait a few months while I found him a replacement machine, that I discounted $1000 for the inconvenience that I caused him. That’s the kind of crap that I have to deal with, all of the time. The original seller is no crook or conman, just a decent everyday guy with an adjustable sense of integrity and a convenient ability to justify it.

I made an agreement with a machinery dealer to purchase four machines from him, he agreed to give me 30 days to pay for them, two weeks in he stopped answering my calls, turns out he sold them to someone else. When i called him from a different phone number, and he answered, he tried to defends his action as a "business decision". My take is his business decision was the deal that he made with me.

Or this one below,

This is a sample of the photo used for the auction. I bid based on these photos. My customer agreed to buy it based on these photos.

354945B.jpg
This is the condition of the machine that arrived.

actual (4).jpg actual (10).jpg



The agent for the auction company that i have dealt with for 13 years refused responsibility, told me another machinery dealer supplied the photos.
The other machinery dealer denied responsibility, told me that another dealer supplied her the photos. He said he didn't see any problem.
I received a lot of abuse from all three parties, and was told by the auction company agent that here was no way that I would get a refund, suck it up and forget it.
Under threat of a lawsuit the auction company owner made a settlement.



I completely rebuilt the machine, at no extra cost to my customer. Cost me a lot. Completely stripped down , sandblasted, new clamps, new bearing new lineal rail, rebuilt feed cylinder, new seals, hoses, rebuilt motor spindles, spray welded and machined, rebored castings etc. etc. etc.

1-SAM_4883.jpg05-SAM_5026.jpg01-SAM_4937.JPG3-SAM_4955.jpg1-SAM_5266.JPG

This is the price you pay, if you want to play in this business.


You obviously have had a different experience that I have, my point of view is based on my experience. I have had a lot of good experiences and enough bad ones to be worried when I am involved in deals. People are fairly predictable, when there is a balance of power. The problem comes when the power is all on one side, then you have to deal with people doing the math, weighing up what they can get away with. This kind of stuff happens a lot, unfortunately it is not once in a blue moon stuff.

So if you are getting into this market, you should be prepared.

[Warren Lake]

Mark thanks for sharing all that. Im going to save it to help me pay attention more. Auctions were pretty good when they were regular and the machine was in front of you plus I could read the audience. some were plants. Online made it harder, far away made it harder. Appreciate you taking the time to write and share all that and the photos.

[Curt Harms]

A relevant blog post:

https://bytetechnology.com/blog/payp...y-the-numbers/

[Mark Rainey]

Mark, thanks for your interesting description of your experiences; your passages give insight to the meaning of integrity and the frailties of the human condition.

[Wes Grass]

I've sold a number of things here, and on other forums, and haven't had any real trouble to speak of. That includes accepting personal checks, and shipping the item before receiving payment.

One took about 3 months for the check to arrive. Thought I'd been scammed for awhile, and then he contacted me with an apology. Scraped up his name and city, and found out he was a VP at an engineering firm. That made the final wait a lot easier.

Sold a handgun to a friend of mine. The dealer that did the transfer, retired LEO, had him meet in the parking lot at the station he'd worked at. He told me they were sitting on the tailgate of his truck finalizing the paperwork, a 357 laying in the open, and uniformed officers walking by saying 'hey Ken, hows it going?'

[Mark Hennebury]

Dealing with people is difficult whatever business you are in.

I have been mostly self-employed since the 70's, mostly as a woodworker with my own shop making custom furniture and built-ins, the last 15 or so years buying fixing and selling used woodworking machinery.

Responding to this thread has dredged up memories of many interactions that I had with customers all the way back to the beginning.

I have many more stories about transactions with machinery purchases and just as many with getting paid for woodwork.



Here is an odd one on the machinery vein;

I saw a Machine for sale on Woodweb.
I have purchased machines on woodweb before.
I know the dealer that has the machine listed for sale.
So, I buy the machine.
I am happy, the dealer is happy.

Then I get a phone call from an irate stranger, giving me a lot of verbal abuse for buying the machine, telling me that he was going to buy it. So, according to him that made it his machine. He hurled a stream of abuse at me, told he would spread the word that I was not to be trusted, and that no-one should do business with me, he ended up saying that he hoped that I had fun using his machine and slammed the phone down.

I called the dealer, he said he remembered the guy, said that this guy had spoken to him months ago and said that he wanted to buy the machine, and that he never paid for it, never showed up to get it and had never heard from him again.
The dealer said that it was his machine to sell, and he sold it to me. Done deal, and to ignore the crazy guy.

I never heard from the guy again, but it was still it was a little unsettling.

[Mark Hennebury]

Getting paid;

Woodwork stories;

There are stark differences within the two categories of woodwork;

1. Stand alone work. which the customer picks up from your shop,
2. Built-ins that you deliver and install at their premises.

Most transaction with stand alone furniture were trouble free, not so with the built -in side of things.
If you think about for a bit you will see that the power dynamic is totally different, and that I believe is the reason for the different results.

In Stand alone furniture making transactions it goes like this;

The customer gives me a deposit. They are making an investment and taking a risk.
I buy the materials and make the furniture, So I have invested my time and need to get paid.
The customer arrives at my shop.
We have both made an investment, and want the return on our investment.
They want the furniture and I want to get paid.
A reasonable balance of power, and the transaction goes smoothly.


The power dynamic in built-ins is totally different;

The customer gives me a deposit.
I buy materials, build the desk, wall unit, stairs, cabinets whatever, then install them in their premises.
Now they have the product and the cash balance!
And I have… anxiety.

It’s showtime!
This is when the monsters emerge!

Now I get see who I have been working for.


Is the person going to hand over the check and shake your hand?

Are they going to hold onto the check, feel the power that they hold.... and make you dance?

If they decide to make you dance, and you have a family to feed, the safest thing to do is dance!

You can of course learn to play the game, reverse or balance the power, but there is a big risk and a possible crippling cost if you lose.

It is always interesting!

[Ron Selzer]

Mark, thank you for all the information you have given
Makes me feel better about the times I have felt screwed over as they could have been much worse than what they were.
Majority of mine were items improperly packed for shipping and then damaged with the seller refusing to take the blame.
Lucky for me all were wants and not needs. Some were very rare and have not found replacement parts for, but none affected my ability to provide for my family.
Ron