Electric Cars

[Doug Garson]

The majority of EV charging that I'm aware of around here is done in the cars' home garages. I suspect that's true overall - most folks go home at night and their car tops up overnight, and they need a public charger only when making an extended trip. Since electricity prices are regulated in most places, it takes some time for market energy costs to show up in your "gas tank" bill. Or, in my case, they never do, since the juice comes off our solar panels. I know pretty well to the penny what I'm going to pay for kwhs.

Not only are electricity prices regulated so not immediately affected by market energy costs but depending on location they may never see significant impact due to fluctuations in oil prices. In BC where I live, 95% of our electricity is from renewable sources, in fact our power generation company, is called BC Hydro since that is our biggest source. Currently BC Hydro is predicting electricity prices, which are amongst the lowest in North America, to only rise less than 1 1/2% per year for the next few years. So EVs not only help reduce CO2 emissions they can also reduce the impact of wild energy price fluctuations and we all know that wild energy price fluctuations always go in one direction.

[Steve Demuth]

More to the point, will the cost of recycling them get baked into the initial purchase price, or will that particular can get kicked down the road?

The anode, cathode and electrolyte materials are inherently recyclable, and frankly need to be recycled in some case since they are in relatively short supply as virgin materials. Unfortunately, right now, they rarely are recycled because in order to make them sufficiently mechanically robust and safe, they are manufactured in such a way (everything embedded in epoxy and other composite matrix materials) that disassembling them is difficult, making the core materials from recycling more expensive than virgin materials. Long term this is a significant problem.

[Greg Funk]

Seems to be the right thing...you definitely want the 50 amp version as far as I know. (NEMA 14-50)

If I was going to add a new line I'd go with 50A but I just use an existing 20A/240V plug in my garage and it works fine for my needs. If I drive to work it's about 60km round trip and takes a little over 2 hrs to recharge. If I add some errands I might get up to 80-100km in a day but can't see having an issue re-charging overnight. If I need to charge faster for some reason there's a supercharger station not far away.

[roger wiegand]

Seems to be the right thing...you definitely want the 50 amp version as far as I know. (NEMA 14-50)

I'm not aware of any chargers that require the neutral. Given the current cost of 6 or 4 AWG wire why run the extra line? A NEMA 6-50 outlet will do the trick.

[Jim Becker]

If I was going to add a new line I'd go with 50A but I just use an existing 20A/240V plug in my garage and it works fine for my needs. If I drive to work it's about 60km round trip and takes a little over 2 hrs to recharge. If I add some errands I might get up to 80-100km in a day but can't see having an issue re-charging overnight. If I need to charge faster for some reason there's a supercharger station not far away.

One of the nice things about this is that you can charge with what you have available. Yes, times are longer when you have less current available, but you can still charge. Using existing, if the charge time works for you is pretty cost effective.

I'm not aware of any chargers that require the neutral. Given the current cost of 6 or 4 AWG wire why run the extra line? A NEMA 6-50 outlet will do the trick.

I don't disagree relative to the need. Jurisdictions may require the four wire circuit, however, as someone "could", as unlikely as it may be, plug in an appliance and four wire is required for that.

[Tom M King]

I have plenty of leftover wire, but probably none without the neutral. Being close to a service panel, such a circuit wouldn't take much wire anyway. It allows other possibilities too, such as running an RV, or modern welder. Even if I had to buy wire, I'd still run the neutral.

[Brian Elfert]

You can run neutral if not needed. Just don't hook it up.

[Jim Becker]

You can run neutral if not needed. Just don't hook it up.

If it's being inspected that might not be acceptable to the local jurisdiction. There's no harm in having the full four wire circuit for this application. The charging will just not use the neutral.

[Brian Elfert]

If it's being inspected that might not be acceptable to the local jurisdiction. There's no harm in having the full four wire circuit for this application. The charging will just not use the neutral.

I haven't had any inspections issue with using leftover 14/3 cable when I needed 14/2 cable.

[Jim Becker]

I haven't had any inspections issue with using leftover 14/3 cable when I needed 14/2 cable.

Yes, but that's a different situation and I've done the same, honestly, because I hate waste and also hate spending money on something that I already essentially have. But in the context of this thread, we're talking a 50 amp 240 v circuit to charge an EV ... 50A 240v is typically a dedicated appliance circuit in residential settings and is required to be four wire, AFAIK. I do not honestly know if there's any specific consideration around EV charging ports in code and inspections. In the end, it may also come down to the inspector as "all approvals are local".

[roger wiegand]

4 AWG THHN copper wire (what seems to be required for a Tesla Gen3 charger at full capacity) runs about $2/ft here so that "maybe someday" wire would cost me an extra $150 or so. I'd rather just leave a pull string in the conduit for that eventuality. Since the charger is hard wired and provides its own GFCI there doesn't seem to be any issue with the code.

No desire to go delving into the code, but I've seen plenty of inspected installations where 240V power using two conductors and a ground passed without comment. Clearly installing a three conductor plus ground receptacle with no neutral attached would be a red flag no-no.

[Bill Dufour]

I would run all four conductors to a small subpanel near the new outlet location. Then you can install a 120 VC outlet for a car vacuum etc. Or a 30 amp when you use your tablesaw outside etc.
Bill D

[Tom M King]

Some RV boxes have all those in it. I bought two of them about a year ago for $88 each. I looked at them yesterday, and they are now 238 for the same Siemens box. It does have breakers, 120, as well as 30 amp 120V, and 50 amp 240V receptacles. I couldn't figure out, at the time I bought those two off Amazon, how they could sell them that cheap. It was probably one of those Amazon mistakes that show up every once in a while.

https://www.amazon.com/TL137US-Tempo...32207842&psc=1

[Greg Funk]

I don't disagree relative to the need. Jurisdictions may require the four wire circuit, however, as someone "could", as unlikely as it may be, plug in an appliance and four wire is required for that.

They couldn't plug a kitchen appliance into a 6-50 receptacle so unless the jurisdiction required appliance outlets in the garage (seems unlikely) it doesn't seem any different that providing a receptacle for a tablesaw or welder; it's just a higher capacity circuit.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I'm not an electrician but 2 hots with a ground is "standard" 240V. You need the common for certain devices, like a dryer or stove because some of the components run on 120V and the common allows the 120V items to run using hot, common, ground. There is absolutely no need for a common wire for an EVSE. I don't know about every EVSE in the world obviously, but I looked at many before I bought mine and none required a common wire.

As far as I know, you should use a 3/1 for a 14-50 plug and 2/1 wire for a 6-50 plug. This is why I went with the 6-50 plug. If you use 6-50 plug, you should be able to use 3 or 2 wire. If you use 14-50, you should only use 3 wire.

One thing people overlook is the breaker. Universally, every electrician I've spoken to has said to match your desired amperage to the breaker. So if your vehicle can only charge at 32A, you should install a 40A circuit. If you install a 50A circuit, it's far less likely to trip if a problem occurs.

Touching on battery recycling and lifetime. Companies are already being formed and studies are already coming out about how efficient battery recycling is in the very near future. The reality is, battery rebuilding/reconditioning is going to be a big business for the future. These batteries are designed to be able to swap cells. When a battery "goes bad" it's likely that it will only be a cell or a few cells. Dropping the battery, opening it up, removing the bad cells, popping in new cells, balancing the battery, and reinstalling is going to be a big business in the EV world within the next 10 years.

Let's just hope the dealers are open to allowing other shops work on these vehicles. Right to repair is a big subject and could be a big problem in the near future with EVs. With EVs theoretically needing less repairs, it wouldn't surprise me one bit for manufacturers to limit the amount of info available to the public so that dealership service departments stay busy and profitable.