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Thread: Electric Cars

  1. #196
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    That's the impression I have, but I could be wrong...

    Obviously, you'd need to deal with weather proofing if the connection isn't inside of a closed garage space, too. I haven't started looking into it exactly because we're about two years away from an EV, but I'll likely do an outside connection. There are commercially available Level 2 charging setups that probably take into account weather in their design.
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  2. #197
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    One will be inside the garage, and one on the outside. I guess I could use one of these on the outside? https://www.amazon.com/Talon-LGP1S-E...63286788&psc=1

    edited to add: I'll get a brand I'm familiar with from my favorite electrical supplier. Just needed to know the receptacle type. I have a couple of Siemens 30 and 50 amp RV boxes. I guess they could use those, but it would be nice to have some at the house. The RV hookups aren't exactly near the house.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 11-13-2021 at 1:46 PM.

  3. #198
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    Seems to be the right thing...you definitely want the 50 amp version as far as I know. (NEMA 14-50)
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  4. #199
    Some of the people who have EVs in my area put the NEMA 14-50 outlet in the garage and use a long charging cord. Closing the garage door doesn't seem to affect the cord.

    Mike
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  5. #200
    14-50 is the most popular receptacle type. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 6-50 plug type either. The 14-50 plug type was adapted because it was seen as a bit more universally used outside of EVs. There used to be some idea that EVs would park at camp grounds instead of hotels and charge there. While some people do this, this is not really a thing to consider any longer.

    The difference between the 14-50 and 6-50 is the the 14-50 has a 3 wires + ground where the 6-50 has 2 wires + ground. The 3rd wire (common) is used for ovens and driers and things like that so they can use 120V and 240V on the same plug. 6-50 is 100% 240V. As far as I'm aware NO EVSE (EV Charger) requires the common wire. So big picture, you're paying to run a 3rd line of 6 gauge copper wire for pretty much no reason.

    A rule of thumb is 30A circuit will provide around 15-20miles of range per hour. 40A circuit will provide around 20-25 miles of range. A 50A circuit will provide around 25-30 miles of range. It really depends on how efficient your car is.

    One more thing to mention: In 2021, the government will give you a tax credit of 30% off whatever you spend on installing and purchasing an EVSE. This includes labor, material and charger. I forget the dollar limit, but it's pretty high.

    Regarding chargers: You need to decide whether you want a dumb charger or a smart charger. In my opinion, the biggest thing you get from a smart charger is the ability to track power usage. Right now Tesla actually has a great deal on a J style charger that is a "dumb" charger. Grizzl-E is another brand that is very well respected, which is actually what I have. For a smart charger, the ChargePoint Flex is probably the best bang for the buck. Be aware, if you leave the charger outside, it will likely fail before the interior one.
    Last edited by Ross Moshinsky; 11-13-2021 at 7:00 PM.
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  6. #201
    I read a Bloomberg article recently that was talking about how fast you can charge an EV. The author said that range is not the battleground now, speed of charging is. That is, top end EVs all have sufficient range but there's a difference in how fast they can recharge. I remember that the Porsche was the leader (for now) with the ability to put 200 miles into the car in (I think) 20 minutes.

    The article also said that EVs are improving so fast that people trade in their EV about every three years to get the new features and functions. Sort of like smartphones when they first came out.

    Here's an article from someone else about the same issue.

    Mike
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  7. #202
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    Great article Mike. Thanks.
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  8. #203
    Charging speed is important, but frankly, it's more about convincing non-EV owners than convincing current EV owners. Most EV owners know that charging is done at home, overnight. It's simple, easy, cheap, and effective. On a 50A circuit, you can charge about 30-35miles per hour.

    The thing is, car companies have to convince non-EV drivers to convert over and their big gripes are range and charging speed. There are plenty of EV owners who only use fast chargers 5-10 times a year. Many use it far less. I've used it once so far and it was because it was free one weekend and I wanted to try it out. Tesla would be a bit of an exception because their Supercharging rates are extremely fair so there's no real downside of using their chargers vs at home.

    The number of charging stations and their reliability are a way bigger issue. People who road trip will tell you that they don't have range anxiety because their car doesn't go very far on a charge or because it charges slowly. They're afraid that if they have 30 miles left of range and they pull into a charging station, will it work? If it doesn't work, will that 30 miles get them to the next charging station?

    Same thing about just running around on a normal day. You might have 100 miles of range and all of a sudden an emergency happens and you need to do a 120 mile round trip. Is there a charging station in that direction? Does it work? Will it be occupied when you arrive? I'd take 100, 50-75kWh chargers spread out over 10, 350kWh chargers.

    That's why it's important to talk to actual EV drivers. If you go on Youtube everything is about range and charging speeds. That just gets clicks and draws interest. The reality is, if someone wanted to make an honest video about EV ownership. It would be about 1 minute. It would be a video of a person pulling in their driveway. Taking the cord. Plugging it in. Walking away. Cut to the next morning when they unplug, curl their cord up, and jump in their car and drive away.
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  9. #204
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    Charging speed was pretty important to me as I decided which EV to buy (full disclosure, I've ordered a Tesla Model Y). The longest trip we routinely make is to my sister's in Ohio-- about 600 miles. Using the superchargers, charging at two intermediate stops will add about 35 minutes to the calculated trip time. I don't know about any of you, but I can no longer drive for 11 hours without taking a couple of 15-20 minute breaks! So this seemed completely inconsequential. This convinced me that we really didn't need to maintain an ICE vehicle for our travels.

    In contrast the Ford Mach E, our other contender, requires three stops and about 90 minutes of charge time to make the same trip. That was a big enough difference to help tip the balance, along with other factors such as getting a predominantly US-made car rather than Mexican, and the much more refined and well-developed engineering of the Tesla.

    There is a nice app called "A Better Route Planner" that will let you see the availability of both Tesla and other charging stations along any route you care to put in. At least in the northeast quadrant of the country there aren't too many places where there aren't multiple redundant charging opportunities.

    That said, I suspect 95% of our charging will be done at home.

  10. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Moshinsky View Post
    Charging speed is important, but frankly, it's more about convincing non-EV owners than convincing current EV owners. Most EV owners know that charging is done at home, overnight. It's simple, easy, cheap, and effective. On a 50A circuit, you can charge about 30-35miles per hour.

    The thing is, car companies have to convince non-EV drivers to convert over and their big gripes are range and charging speed. There are plenty of EV owners who only use fast chargers 5-10 times a year. Many use it far less. I've used it once so far and it was because it was free one weekend and I wanted to try it out. Tesla would be a bit of an exception because their Supercharging rates are extremely fair so there's no real downside of using their chargers vs at home.

    The number of charging stations and their reliability are a way bigger issue. People who road trip will tell you that they don't have range anxiety because their car doesn't go very far on a charge or because it charges slowly. They're afraid that if they have 30 miles left of range and they pull into a charging station, will it work? If it doesn't work, will that 30 miles get them to the next charging station?

    Same thing about just running around on a normal day. You might have 100 miles of range and all of a sudden an emergency happens and you need to do a 120 mile round trip. Is there a charging station in that direction? Does it work? Will it be occupied when you arrive? I'd take 100, 50-75kWh chargers spread out over 10, 350kWh chargers.

    That's why it's important to talk to actual EV drivers. If you go on Youtube everything is about range and charging speeds. That just gets clicks and draws interest. The reality is, if someone wanted to make an honest video about EV ownership. It would be about 1 minute. It would be a video of a person pulling in their driveway. Taking the cord. Plugging it in. Walking away. Cut to the next morning when they unplug, curl their cord up, and jump in their car and drive away.
    There are apps that will tell you the status of each charging station - whether it's working, whether it's in use, how many stations there are in that location, etc. Tesla has that integrated into their cars - you can see it on the display.

    Sure, most people will charge at home. But when you take a car trip, or have an emergency like Ross said, you need to know where the charging stations are on your route, and their status. You can easily get that, either from an app, or in your car. That's much better than trying to find a gas station in a strange area - there's very little information about where they are, and if they're open.

    More charging stations are being installed every day. There's a bunch of money in the Infrastructure bill to install more.

    I think people will think of charging stations the same way they think of gas stations, fairly soon.

    Mike
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  11. #206
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    I don't have have time to read this whole thread; obviously I'm late to the show and forgive me if this has already been discussed, but what happens to the batteries after their useful life has expired? Are they rebuildable or will we need to find storage for spent batteries like we do for nuclear waste?

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Grider View Post
    I don't have have time to read this whole thread; obviously I'm late to the show and forgive me if this has already been discussed, but what happens to the batteries after their useful life has expired? Are they rebuildable or will we need to find storage for spent batteries like we do for nuclear waste?
    More to the point, will the cost of recycling them get baked into the initial purchase price, or will that particular can get kicked down the road?
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  13. #208
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    Funny.

    But not really far off. There are over 4000 type 4680 cells in the Tesla Model 3 "battery." It really does run on thousands of individual batteries wired in parallel into modules and ganged by module in series to get an overall high voltage; they are somewhat bigger, and of course a bit over twice the voltage of an AA, but they otherwise don't look all that different from one. The magic is their charge capacity (9-15 times that of an AA) and rechargeability.

  14. #209
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    I wonder if those with EVs are seeing any increase in charging cost currently similar to the huge increase in gas prices.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Garson View Post
    I wonder if those with EVs are seeing any increase in charging cost currently similar to the huge increase in gas prices.
    The majority of EV charging that I'm aware of around here is done in the cars' home garages. I suspect that's true overall - most folks go home at night and their car tops up overnight, and they need a public charger only when making an extended trip. Since electricity prices are regulated in most places, it takes some time for market energy costs to show up in your "gas tank" bill. Or, in my case, they never do, since the juice comes off our solar panels. I know pretty well to the penny what I'm going to pay for kwhs.

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