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Thread: Electric Cars

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Elfert View Post
    I doubt there will be any issues getting fuel for any ICE vehicle in a decade from now unless government bans the sale of petroleum fuels. Congress is unlikely to do so as a whole lot of them would be looking for a new job after the next election. A great many businesses, farms especially, use vintage equipment they can't afford to replace. A lot of businesses would go under if they had to replace all of their ICE equipment with electric. Let's say you have a bunch of old stuff that is worth $100,000. To replace all of that equipment with electric could easily reach into the millions. A business with a few million in revenue is unlikely to be able to afford that equipment even if they can finance or lease it.

    Many of the cars bought today will still be in use in 10 years. Perhaps 20 years from now finding petroleum fuels might be an issue, but even then I doubt it will be hard to find. There might be fewer gas stations by then.
    Yes, petroleum fuels will get harder to find 20 or 30 years from now but the real motivation to retire old vehicles including farm vehicles will be operating costs. Multiple studies have shown that compared to a similar ICE vehicle, many EVs have lower cost of ownership over five or more years despite the fact that the EV is several thousand dollars more expensive to buy. The payback will be longer for older existing equipment compared to new equipment but as the older equipment ages and parts wear out and are harder and harder to find eventually buying a new EV will be more cost effective than continuing to maintain and buy fuel for an old ICE vehicle.

  2. #77
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    I have given though to an electric car. However, the thought of getting stuck on the Interstate during a snow storm or cold scares me. With the cold, battery capability goes down and the ability to stay warm goes way down.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Frank View Post
    I have given though to an electric car. However, the thought of getting stuck on the Interstate during a snow storm or cold scares me. With the cold, battery capability goes down and the ability to stay warm goes way down.
    Here's a link to an article that debunks the myth that EVs don't perform in the cold.

    https://www.saskpower.com/about-us/o...chewan-winters

  4. That article does nothing to address what Larry Frank is concerned about. Here in Central PA, motorists frequently get caught on interstates for 12 or 24 hours. An internal combustion engine can idle for a fair amount of time, and when only run for a few minutes every 20 to 30 minutes, a full tank can last a day to keep a snow bound family warm. Despite coats and blankets and candles in an emergency kit, how long can an EV keep the occupants warm in such a life or death situation. Perhaps 5 years ago, we had a couple hundred motorists stuck in a ten mile stretch of interstate 78. Snow plows could not get through and there were not enough snow vehicles to get them out. As the blizzard ended, the authorities brought out prisoners to shovel the cars out, carry emergency food/haul gasoline, etc to those who were stuck. Your article does absolutely nothing to address that, other than affirm that battery charge duration goes down faster. I have been stuck for an hour in a snow drift in a 4 wdr truck with 17 inch tires. The 2 mile walk back home in 40 mph wind driven snow would have been horribly bad. But had I been on the interstate 6 miles from an exit, it would have been life threatening to try to walk it. I shoveled enough to get the truck free of the drift, so the walk became moot. Explain to me how the EV handles the wheels slipping as it tries to pull through the snow. Do the miles the tires slip count toward the range?

  5. #80
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    According to the article, the range decreases 50-60%.

  6. #81
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    Years ago I got stuck in a huge pile-up (one of dozens, as it turned out) on I-80 in western PA during a massive ice storm. Of the hundred or so cars involved in my particular focus at least six ran out of gas before we could go anywhere and that was only an ~eight hour delay

    Winter safety is not a function of the fuel you choose-- always be prepared to last out a day or two in an unheated vehicle with appropriate clothing, blankets, or a sleeping bag as well as a source of water.

    Note also that you can, theoretically, run the seat heaters (adequate to keep you from freezing) for hundreds of hours on a full charge. Your ICE vehicle won't do that. In a vehicle like Tesla that uses a heat pump rather than resistance heating you can maintain cabin temperature in sub-freezing weather while standing still for a couple of days. Just as in an ICE vehicle, how long you can go depends on how much fuel you have in the tank. Don't depend on the gauge being at "F" when disaster strikes!

  7. #82
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    There is no question Electric Vehicles are going to change many things. There are also a great many details to be worked out. It's going to take years for some of these things to happen and because of that the ICE won't be going away for many years. Just because you can build a car that travels 300 miles on a charge doesn't mean you can build a tractor that will run 10 or 12 hours at 80% load. Doing chores is one thing but doing field tillage work is another. I know Deere and Case are working on these things. Case is building and selling a battery powered backhoe. I think the first one went to a utility in upstate New York.

  8. How many "watt hours " a month to charge it? That is great for those having a garage, but going out in a cold snow after getting home to fiddle with a plug at night and again in the morning aint happening any time soon. While sitting to a hot breakfast, We push a button on the phone and start the vehicles we are going to use. Heck, farmers even have automated milking machines that hook up to cows' udders and milk them three times a day. You would think there would be an automatic plug in machine for the car.

  9. #84
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    The bottom line in my mind is that if one is going to go the electrification route, they have to consider their situation when choosing between a full EV and a hybrid. So folks who have concerns about things like being stranded in a blizzard will likely be better served by a hybrid vehicle whereas those of us who are considering something for general, local transportation will likely be well served by a full EV. It's good to have choices.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Elfert View Post
    There are a great many people who are dead set against GPS tracking of vehicles for road taxes. Law enforcement will certainly be asking judges to allow them to see the data to determine which drivers where in the area of crimes. People don't want to be hassled by the police just because they happened to be 1/4 mile from a shooting. Criminals will just not install the devices or otherwise disable them. Any politician who votes for GPS tracking is risking political suicide.

    Odometer tracking is fraught with issues. If I pay by the mile for state roads why should I pay for miles I drove in another state? Odometer fraud would be through the roof. We'll figure out a new way to pay for roads and I can almost guarantee most drivers will hate it for one reason or another.
    And almost all of those people have a smart phone in their pocket or purse while driving, so they are already being tracked, at least to the granularity of the cellular system, and probably via GPS location logging as well. People are weird that way.

    I agree wholeheartedly with you summary though - there will be a way, and people will hate it. Same way they piss and moan about the gas tax or registration fees. Last car I bought my wife (a 2019 Chevy Volt) cost us about 28,000. So, we're paying the State of Iowa $65.00 extra on our registration for the cost of the roads to run that on. But say it was $200 - over a decade of use, we'd pay about 7% of what the car cost in road use fees. Those roads are a critical component of the car - probably the most critical after the motor, drive train and steering wheel, and that 7% looks a bargain to me. The actual 2.5% we are paying is a dead steal.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Terefenko View Post
    For those that own electric cars a few questions?? Do you like your choice as opposed to having a gas operated one? Would you do it again? Did you have to make changes to your insurance plans, both vehicle and home? If so what? Being there is a higher risk with battery fires from charging and now you had to add a charging port in your house plan somewhere is that a concern for you and did it effect your insurance? Are the batteries in the car warrentied? If so how long? Have you had to replace any yet and if so how much and were you able to get rid of old? Thanks. Maybe we can get a discussion going on electric cars and the pros and cons.....
    We've got a plug-in hybrid, 2019 Chevrolet Volt. It does about 85% of its miles as an electric vehicle right now. During Covid restrictions, it was nearly 100% - my wife didn't fill the gas tank but once after we bought the car in October of 2019, through the end of 2020. The batteries are covered by a generous 100,000 mile warranty. I don't sweat the fire risk. EV's are not more likely to burn in an accident than gasoline vehicles (although the resulting fire might be a challenge for the fire department - they are very difficult to extinguish). Insurance was not different than for an ICE car. We do pay a registration surcharge to compensate for the road use (gasoline) tax we're not paying at the pump. It's small, and an insignificant part of the overall cost of transportation.

    We charge the Volt exclusively at home, and added additional solar panels to our existing setup to generate the required kwH. That added about $3000-4000 to the $28,000 cost of the car. But fuel is now free ;-).

    I love the performance. Electric cars have enormous torque for their size at ready command. Hit the accelerator, and the car accelerates smoothly, strongly and immediately.

    The drawbacks I see to electric: in our climate, where winter temperatures are consistently below freezing from mid-November through March, and sub-zero Fahrenheit is not uncommon, they are very difficult to heat adequately. Heating a car cabin while zipping down the road at 55mph at 10o F sucks kwh like nobodies business. Keeping the car adequately warm for my 100lb, low-temperature wife is almost impossible, and drains the range quickly if you try. Traction / control is also inferior, due to the weight of the batteries being distributed to the rear of the front wheel-drive vehicle. I imagine it would be worse in a full electric with a much bigger and heavier battery. Finally, it's worth noting that in these climates, the car uses power even when not in use, to keep the battery adequately warmed. If I lived in the Southern half of the US, I wouldn't sweat any of these. Here in Iowa / Minnesota, they are a small, but real drawback.
    Last edited by Steve Demuth; 10-20-2021 at 10:18 AM.

  12. #87
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    Steve, I really liked the design that GM used with the Volt for a hybrid vehicle...electric but with onboard charging via the small engine. I don't really understand why more manufacturers didn't go that way and Volt is now off the market.
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    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Demuth View Post
    And almost all of those people have a smart phone in their pocket or purse while driving, so they are already being tracked, at least to the granularity of the cellular system, and probably via GPS location logging as well. People are weird that way.

    I agree wholeheartedly with you summary though - there will be a way, and people will hate it. Same way they piss and moan about the gas tax or registration fees. Last car I bought my wife (a 2019 Chevy Volt) cost us about 28,000. So, we're paying the State of Iowa $65.00 extra on our registration for the cost of the roads to run that on. But say it was $200 - over a decade of use, we'd pay about 7% of what the car cost in road use fees. Those roads are a critical component of the car - probably the most critical after the motor, drive train and steering wheel, and that 7% looks a bargain to me. The actual 2.5% we are paying is a dead steal.
    Yes, your phone might be tracked, but I think people are worried about GPS data being sent straight to state government. You know that law enforcement is going to go to court to get that data to see who was in the area of a crime. Someone living in a high crime area might not want to be hassled by law enforcement regularly, especially if they happen to drive a common model of car.

    My issue with high electric car surcharges is the surcharge is more than I would pay in fuel taxes with a 25 MPG gas vehicle. I think road taxes need to go up, but they need to go up for everyone, not just electric car owners.

  14. #89
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    Brian, I've seen some talk here and there about changing from using fuel sales to generate road revenue to other methods not tied to how the vehicle is powered. Flat fee vs actual usage is going to be an interesting conundrum to solve...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Steve, I really liked the design that GM used with the Volt for a hybrid vehicle...electric but with onboard charging via the small engine. I don't really understand why more manufacturers didn't go that way and Volt is now off the market.
    I agree. Great transitional vehicle technology, and a good, solid sedan overall. I sought out a new 2019 Volt when I realized they were ending production. I figure it'll last us at minimum a decade, and by then, electrics will have many more of the current challenges worked out. During that decade, we'll be powering 80% of our transportation from our own solar, with no loss in flexibility.

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