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Thread: Yet Another Dust Collector Thread

  1. #1

    Yet Another Dust Collector Thread

    I just ordered the ductwork and a bigger dust collector for my new shop. This step is huge for me. I struggled mightily with the “optimum” choices for dust collection. I complicated the issue by letting the builder dictate timetable of construction and design of a dropped ceiling in the basement and dust collector closet. I had no idea of the complications that would result from a 15 min decision. Today, I proposed a duct work design to a supplier of Nordfab that worked within the constraints of the building and ordered a top tier dust collector. This step breaks a log jam of construction dependencies that will allow completion of the fire resistant sheet rock of the ceiling of the basement, floor outlet wiring of the mid floor tool cluster, and a garage door in the basement. I will be off to the races with shop furniture and the handrail for the interior stairs. I am happy tonight.

  2. #2
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    One step at a time...and that's a very nice big step! 'Looking forward to the details as you put things together.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
    My duct work and dust collector came in a few weeks ago. I have been traveling so not much progress has been made. Today, I hung the collector on the wall bracket temporarily using some drywall screws and put in the ductwork into the basement closet. I am just checking dimensions. I can move the bracket to line up collector and pipe. Looks like everything will fit together.

    4FAA646D-367A-4760-B8C6-472BBC0EDF06.jpg

    I made a simple cradle to hold pipe as I cut it. It works well.
    0238AE41-6707-46FA-9342-813AB479E2C1.jpg
    I use a Bosch jig saw with a very fine, metal-cutting blade to make cuts. It is easier than I expected.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Thomas Wilson; 11-28-2021 at 7:15 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Wilson View Post
    I use a Bosch jig saw with a very fine, metal-cutting blade to make cuts. It is easier than I expected.
    A half inch hole to start the cut then a powered metal shear. I use a Grizzly H5503 at home and a DeWalt at work. Broke the jaw on the Grizzly at home when cutting thru a seam with 3 layers, repaired it with a set of jaws from Harbor Freight.
    Just finished up hooking up 14 6" drops at work all but the floor sweep were reduced down after blast gate to hook up to machines. Used Nordfab QF ducting, good stuff. 20 hp AAF dust collector, 17" trunk line.
    Like your cradle setup, looks like it will make it easier.
    Good luck
    Ron

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Selzer View Post
    A half inch hole to start the cut then a powered metal shear. I use a Grizzly H5503 at home and a DeWalt at work. Broke the jaw on the Grizzly at home when cutting thru a seam with 3 layers, repaired it with a set of jaws from Harbor Freight.
    Just finished up hooking up 14 6" drops at work all but the floor sweep were reduced down after blast gate to hook up to machines. Used Nordfab QF ducting, good stuff. 20 hp AAF dust collector, 17" trunk line.
    Like your cradle setup, looks like it will make it easier.
    Good luck
    Ron
    17” main is huge. I am using 6” main with 6x4x4 branches above the floor to connect to machines. I work alone so only one machine will be connected at a time. I need to keep velocity up in the main.

  6. #6
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    wood shop in a new high school. was installed with 6" drops 7' Above Finished Floor. I took it from there

    point I was trying to make was to look into a power shear instead of using the jig saw. All appear to be the same copied off of the original Kett design. Harbor freight has the cheapest version.
    Different way to do what you are doing, yet it is how all the pros I have seen in the field do it. As they say any excuse to buy a new tool
    You have a very nice system started now and appears to be a nice installation job so far. definitely will top quality when you are done.
    Keep in mind it takes roughly 2 4" lines to equal 1 6". 2 x (3.1416x(2x2)) = 25.1328 , 3.1416x(3x3) = 28.2744
    Good luck
    Ron

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Selzer View Post
    wood shop in a new high school. was installed with 6" drops 7' Above Finished Floor. I took it from there

    point I was trying to make was to look into a power shear instead of using the jig saw. All appear to be the same copied off of the original Kett design. Harbor freight has the cheapest version.
    Different way to do what you are doing, yet it is how all the pros I have seen in the field do it. As they say any excuse to buy a new tool
    You have a very nice system started now and appears to be a nice installation job so far. definitely will top quality when you are done.
    Keep in mind it takes roughly 2 4" lines to equal 1 6". 2 x (3.1416x(2x2)) = 25.1328 , 3.1416x(3x3) = 28.2744
    Good luck
    Ron
    Thanks, Ron. From my vast experience of cutting exactly one pipe cut so far, the allure of a new tool is not quite enough yet. The jigsaw with a fine tooth metal cutting blade method worked really well. One important safety caution about the jigsaw, the upward cut stroke of the blade throws fine metal shavings toward your face. Goggles that fit closely to your face are necessary.

    Your advice about maintaining flow area is well taken for conventional dust collectors that develop static pressure in the 10-12 inch of water range. The Oneida Smart Gorilla that I have is variable speed and develops 23 inches static pressure. It can draw 900 CFM through a 4” port. This volume of flow is good for both dust and chip collection. Of course two 4” ports draw even more but the point is that Oneida has heard Bill Pentz about dust collection versus chip collection. Pentz advocates 800 CFM for dust collection. The Smart Gorilla delivers that through 4” ports which is why I bought it. In contrast, Pentz’s designs implemented by ClearVue to achieve similar flow utilizes larger impellers, bigger ducts, and enlarged ports on machines. One could argue that that the “Smart” part of the Oneida design is that the VFD (variable frequency drive and the digital flow controls) is cheaper than larger ducts and ports. Long term reliability is still an unknown for the VFD but the Smart design has been out for a few years without a lot of issues reported.

    One final point about higher static pressures is the potential for collapsing the pipe. Thin wall HVAC would definitely collapse. I am installing a new system so I chose heavy duty Nordfab Quick Fit. If you (general member of Sawmill Creek) have an existing system with lower rated duct, it might not be cost effective to replace it.

  8. #8
    One suggestion I would make is to hang the cyclone as high as possible on the wall. The longer the drop to the dust bin the more margin you have against clogging the filters in case of an accidental overfill of the bin.

  9. #9
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    Nordfab Quick Fit is nice pipe to work with, I used the power shears to cut it and don't have to worry about metal chips flying. Only problem with it was Grainger who we bought all the pipe and fittings off of would not quote any custom wyes. So ended up buying 6x6x6 then adding 6x4 reducers, then 3d printing 4x1 1/2, 4x2. 4x 2 1/2 reducers to get to needed hose size. Really like how easy it is to reconfigure as changes were made and will be made in the future.
    Worked with vfd's last 30 yrs. or so and they have are smaller, way less expensive and newer ones seem to really last.
    you definitely are installing a top-quality system
    Ron

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    One suggestion I would make is to hang the cyclone as high as possible on the wall. The longer the drop to the dust bin the more margin you have against clogging the filters in case of an accidental overfill of the bin.
    Thanks Kevin. Good point. The collector is in a closet in the basement.

    In this case the alignment is dictated by the piping constraints to get the pipe up and out of the closet. Believe me, I have considered all possible options. This height for the elbow coming down is the best and only way to fit everything into the closet. A straight run of pipe going across from the elbow into the cyclone is also recommended for good flow distribution to the cyclone. I have about 18 inches of 7” duct going in which is a bit short.

    For the overflow problem, I am going to mount the alarm light for the bin sensor in the shop and hope that I watch it. It will be right next to the planer. I had good results with the Dust Sentry sensor in my old dust collector once I cut a circle of cardboard from a shipping box for the bottom of the bin. That really works to eliminate false positives from the level detector. I was amused to see that in the new dust collector, Oneida scored a circular piece of cardboard in the packing material for the bin. It has prominent printing, “Do Not Discard. Put in bottom of dust bin.” We all live and learn.
    Last edited by Thomas Wilson; 11-30-2021 at 10:49 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Selzer View Post
    Nordfab Quick Fit is nice pipe to work with, I used the power shears to cut it and don't have to worry about metal chips flying. Only problem with it was Grainger who we bought all the pipe and fittings off of would not quote any custom wyes. So ended up buying 6x6x6 then adding 6x4 reducers, then 3d printing 4x1 1/2, 4x2. 4x 2 1/2 reducers to get to needed hose size. Really like how easy it is to reconfigure as changes were made and will be made in the future.
    Worked with vfd's last 30 yrs. or so and they have are smaller, way less expensive and newer ones seem to really last.
    you definitely are installing a top-quality system
    Ron
    Ron, you are all set now. But for others setting up a new system, Nordfab does make custom components for a reasonable price if you go through a retailer who can make the measured drawings needed. I am certain you can get 2 1/2” laterals. Not sure about 2” or 1 1/2”. There is a lower limit to the diameter that can be formed. I am getting several custom Nordfab parts through Air Cleaning Specialists, www.ductingsystems.com. More on that when they arrive.

    VFD’s are a new thing for dust collectors. Only, Oneida and Harvey are offering them so far that I know. Most manufacturers will surely follow. One technical development to follow is the speed control. Oneida has a controller that increases/decreases speed to control flow to a set point (This is what they actually meant by “Smart” dust collector.). Harvey has manual speed control. The problem with the Smart design is that not all tools need 900 CFM. I will be connecting up a router table with dust box that would be much happier loafing along at a couple hundred CFM rather than 900. I plan to crack open an extra blast gate to throttle the flow to the router down. A manual dial might be better or at least quieter.

    Dust collection turns out to be a fascinating engineering problem.

  12. #12
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    I went with the Blastgate Company equivalent of Nordfab and love it. The few cuts I had to make in the temporary shop I did with a...hacksaw...but would use my jigsaw with appropriate blade or a shear if I were going to be doing a larger shop. And both companies provide for custom fabrication if it's needed. I only used that for having machine adapters, um...adapted...to the varying size of machine ports. LOL They have a "stretchy machine" that can adjust the ID or OD as needed. But they can also make up special things where there are special needs.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  13. #13
    Not a lot of visible progress last week. (I am doing Christmassy stuff in Atlanta for a few days right now.) I have mostly been thinking about how to connect up the duct work. I perhaps I should re-title this thread, “ The Overthinkers Guide to Dust Collection.” The thing occupying my feeble noggin is connecting the elbow coming down from the shop across to the dust collector inlet. In the planning phase when I drew the piping in the closet and the dust collector input and figured and scratched and scratched and figured, I finally concluded … it was going to be close.
    DuctDrawing.jpeg
    The plan was for the up-down and left-right adjustments against the wall to be done by positioning the DC wall bracket. I have just a little bit of left-right with the ductwork. I knew before I installed it that the duct work needed to be pulled as near to the front wall as possible. When I had it all in the closet and measured it, I realized that if I pushed the pipe to the edge of the range of possible adjustment in one direction and pushed the dust collector as far as I could in the opposite direction that it would still be a 3/4 inch short of lining up horizontally.
    ClosetDuct.jpg TestFitDustCollector.jpg (I know the sleeve is on the wrong side of the joint between elbow and dust collector. I put it there on purpose to be able to see if the elbow was perpendicular to the wall. Final assembly will correct this.)

    I scratched and figured again and then a miracle occurred. The part of the dust collector that would contact the back wall of the closet is the filter. The filter is attached via an elbow to the fan housing that sits on top of the barrel. The dust collector inlet is cut into the barrel. The miracle was the realization that the holes for bolting the fan housing to the barrel are a bit oversized. The fan housing can be rotated with respect to the barrel a few degrees. Amplified by the distance from the pivot point to the edge of the filter, the filter moves away from the wall about 1 1/4”. I have a 1/2” to spare. Disaster averted.

    I have also been thinking about how close to lining up do Nordfab parts need to be for the clamps to seal tightly. Components clamp together best when they are free to pull together without any load or resistance, for example with at least one end free to move as needed. In the closet, the dust collector when permanently mounted is locked down and the piping is nearly so. Only the sleeve is free to move in and out, but side to side and up and down have only a fractions of an inch. Rotation about any axis is about zero except for rotation of the elbow about the vertical. The position of the bracket is not going to be perfect. I can only hope that I get it within 1/16", which seems reasonable. The question is will the clamp close and create an airtight seal with this alignment. I plan to line it up as close as it will go, clamp it, then unclamp and reclaim all the joints in the ductwork going up and away from the closing joint. I will probably do this a few times to distribute strain equally among the joints. I won't know if it is good enough until the whole system is assembled and the dust collector is fired up.

    There are other ways to do the connection between elbow and DC, for example using rigid-flex duct, but I was trying for the smoothest entry into the DC so I will keep that idea in reserve to use if this does not seal up.

    I return to the shop tomorrow. Wish me luck on the bracket alignment.

  14. #14
    The scratching and figuring must have worked. The duct and dust collector lined up, and the filter has clearance to the wall. The pipes are flush and clamped easily. The main dust collector parts were taken down and the remounted permanently with all the gaskets in place. The position of the wall bracket was adjusted to get the parts to line up. They did and I was relieved.

    C1D1D4DA-CCFE-4251-918D-2419CF8C47EE.jpg
    This is the plate to which the filter attaches. It is the same diameter as the filter. The clearance to an imaginary line connecting the inside faces of the studs is about 1/2” which is what I figured.
    E87334BB-A961-4DA5-B323-7BFA8D2DA5EE.jpg
    Now, I move on to the next tasks that I am uncertain about. The big three are:

    Replace and extend the wire for the magnetic controls so the on/off switch and remote control receiver can be moved upstairs.

    Cut neat, precise holes in the floor for the ductwork.

    Measuring for the custom parts.

    I have to run the ductwork too, but that is seemly the easy part. Two pipe cuts so far and I feel like an expert.

  15. #15
    Good progress by my standards yesterday and today on the dust collector installation. I can turn any 15 minute job into a two hour ordeal by worrying, misplacing tools, looking for notes I wrote 6 months ago. So my results are relative to that standard. Plus, this job requires a lot of going up and down stairs.

    I had three jobs on my list in the last post. I got a good start on #1 and #2. The first task was to work out the plan for moving the motor controls and the bin-full alarm light through the floor up to the shop level. I opened the motor cover and control box to see what was involved. I asked a question about this before. This is how it worked out. When I asked how this might be accomplished, the new Oneida Smart Gorilla dust collector was not yet purchased and I based the question on my old portable Dust Gorilla. The controls for the Smart Gorilla are organized differently than Portable Dust Gorilla. First the good news, motor control box for the Portable had the low voltage control and the power switching contacts. The Smart Gorilla just has the low voltage contacts in the control box. The wires leading in and out of the Smart Gorilla’s box are just low voltage communication cable which can be routed without much restriction.
    CFE0C0ED-8182-43C6-AB9C-4421EF06921B.jpg
    With the Portable, I was concerned about routing the 220 v, 30 amp power up to shop and back. With the Smart Gorilla, it will just be low voltage control. The bad news is that the receiver for the remote control is also in the motor housing. It is intimately tied into the motor controller inside the motor housing.
    9054E6A7-E103-429B-88C3-E4CB5E91980D.jpg
    The receiver is the small box on the side of the motor controls. It is not movable, at least not by me. I wonder if I could help reception from the shop remote by splicing some wire onto the receiver’s antenna. I will wait to test that to see if it works as is. Sometimes antenna wire length is important.

    Moving the box only entails obtaining communication cable that is about 10-12 feet long instead of 7. So far, I have not found a source other than a 500’ spool. I need Allied Wire and Cable (AWC) 5662. It is 3 conductor, tinned copper, 18 AWG communication grade. Still cogitating on what to do. I feel certain that there is a way to get the right stuff or a viable substitute.

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