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Thread: Heating/Cooling 2000 sq. ft. shop in Southern Indiana

  1. #1
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    Heating/Cooling 2000 sq. ft. shop in Southern Indiana

    I'm in the process of finalizing my plan for the shop we have built.

    IMG_1569.jpg

    My grandfather built the barn as overflow for his equipment. I've been offered space in there to get my shop set-up. It's 50'x40' with some insulation/vapor barrier in the walls and ceiling, and with a clear ridge cap for light (only two windows so not much natural light). The bottom of the trusses are 12'. I've been planning to build an overhang on the back and put the dust collector outside. It's a 5hp DustVent with 8" main. I'd like to keep the dust and noise outside as much as possible.

    With that said, I'm now looking at the best way to heat and potentially cool the shop. In the winter, I'd like to keep it around 45 with the ability to raise it on shop days. In the summer, I'd just like to keep it below 80, and likely have a fan or two to make it more comfortable. We have a 500 gallon propane tank out back that could be tapped into for heating.

    So here's what I know: some types of heating are dangerous when DC is vented outside (backdrafts?)

    People swear by radiant heat since it heats the tools/floors/people, that would seem to be less affected by external DC. I'm open to a multi-system approach or whatever others suggest. We stay fairly humid here - avg 65% year round and our temps average 30-80F.

    I'll be laying some kind of rubber mat for flooring but I don't want to build up the floor right now. I'm sure there are glaring issues I'm missing so please offer any suggestions.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Pyle View Post
    I'm in the process of finalizing my plan for the shop we have built.

    IMG_1569.jpg

    My grandfather built the barn as overflow for his equipment. I've been offered space in there to get my shop set-up. It's 50'x40' with some insulation/vapor barrier in the walls and ceiling, and with a clear ridge cap for light (only two windows so not much natural light). The bottom of the trusses are 12'. I've been planning to build an overhang on the back and put the dust collector outside. It's a 5hp DustVent with 8" main. I'd like to keep the dust and noise outside as much as possible.

    With that said, I'm now looking at the best way to heat and potentially cool the shop. In the winter, I'd like to keep it around 45 with the ability to raise it on shop days. In the summer, I'd just like to keep it below 80, and likely have a fan or two to make it more comfortable. We have a 500 gallon propane tank out back that could be tapped into for heating.

    So here's what I know: some types of heating are dangerous when DC is vented outside (backdrafts?)

    People swear by radiant heat since it heats the tools/floors/people, that would seem to be less affected by external DC. I'm open to a multi-system approach or whatever others suggest. We stay fairly humid here - avg 65% year round and our temps average 30-80F.

    I'll be laying some kind of rubber mat for flooring but I don't want to build up the floor right now. I'm sure there are glaring issues I'm missing so please offer any suggestions.
    About the most cost effective way to do heating and cooling these days are the extremely efficient mini split systems. You'd need a larger, multi-head unit for that space, but it would be very economical to run. That said, you'll want to get a pro to evaluate the space for sizing of any kind of system you employ...you have a big space with a high celing. And you'll also want to make sure that you've sealed as best as you can for air infiltration if you're going to heat and cool the space.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
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    I agree that air leaks are the place to start when looking to climate control a volume. Then appropriate vapor barrier more or less also essential, and then insulation thickness/ upgraded windows last.

    How often are you going to be running the dust collector? How many dollars would it really cost to duct the dust laden air out to your new lean to - and then exhaust the filtered clean climate controlled air back into your shop space? I did some back of an envelope calculations very recently on how much actual water is warm humid air versus the relativly cool/dry air of a climate controlled space. Post three in this thread: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....limate-control .

    Even in a largish shop like you have described a 5HP dust collector would/ should be able to suck out all of your climate controlled air and replace it with fresh makeup from outdoors in just a few minutes; putting your HVAC system back at the starting line.

    Running a big fan will certainly have an effect on devices that burn things. I have a lot more experience with my woodstove than I do with dust collectors, but I know of folks who have trouble with having wood stove smoke sucked into the house when the clothes dryer or even a kitchen exhaust fan is running. When the building is otherwise sealed up like tupperware, those two appliances can suck hard enough to pull fresh makeup air down the chimney so the wood stove ends up exhausting into the house while the clothes dryer is running.

    One option, if you aren't storing gasoline in there, would be to set up a wood stove with an Outside Air Kit. You would want excellent air sealing on the OAK and the chimney, and you still couldn't run the dust collector when the loading door to the wood stove was open, but with a barn that big you very likely have a few trees around as well.

    Radiant in floor heat is a wonderful thing, but you will want a layer of insulation under the concrete pad so you aren't heating a bunch of dirt while trying to heat your shop space.

  4. #4
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    Putting the DC outside is a great idea for noise, but will play hob with your heating/AC. I think you really need to think about returning the air from the DC to the shop rather than exhausting it. I'm pretty sure that can be done in a way that also provides effective noise reduction.

    I've become quite sorry I didn't go the mini-split route in my shop eight years ago. It's by far the best way to go these days for cost and energy efficiency.

    Air sealing the building is also really important to being able to keep it comfortable without spending a fortune.

  5. #5
    Radiant is wonderful, but costly to install and run. You then have to deal with a separate system for cooling. If you have the resources, first of all, good for you and it is a great system. First step is to get a detailed analysis of the building envelope and tighten where possible bringing the load down. I had good luck in large open spaces with the Fujitsu 36kbtu ceiling suspended model. Two of those hung at about 8 and you would be good, again depending upon the load. I suspect that frequently you could get by running only one. The conventional option would be a gas furnace/AC coil and spiral pipe up in the attic. While you are at this, how is your solar exposure on the building? Adding solar and running the mini-splits you could about zero your electric bills and H/C for nothing. I did all my own roof work and only brought the electrician in for terminating the panels. Half the price of a pro install. Check out the Sunseeker app if interested.

  6. #6
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    Radiant is great heat, but it can't respond quickly to changes, so if you are planning to keep it cool and then raise the temp when you are working out there, you have to allow a lot of time to bring the temp up.
    --Certainty is the refuge of a small mind--

  7. #7
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    Evansville, IN
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    Thanks everyone for the replies, really helpful! I'm a novice at all of this but I'm eager to get this set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Frederick View Post
    Radiant is wonderful, but costly to install and run. You then have to deal with a separate system for cooling. If you have the resources, first of all, good for you and it is a great system. First step is to get a detailed analysis of the building envelope and tighten where possible bringing the load down. I had good luck in large open spaces with the Fujitsu 36kbtu ceiling suspended model. Two of those hung at about 8’ and you would be good, again depending upon the load. I suspect that frequently you could get by running only one. The conventional option would be a gas furnace/AC coil and spiral pipe up in the attic. While you are at this, how is your solar exposure on the building? Adding solar and running the mini-splits you could about zero your electric bills and H/C for nothing. I did all my own roof work and only brought the electrician in for terminating the panels. Half the price of a pro install. Check out the Sunseeker app if interested.
    Thanks Jack, I didn't mean in floor radiant. I saw someone using some kind of directional radiant heating so that it heats the person/equipment rather than the entire space but what you propose sounds great. I'm going to be retrofitting some windows in this building over time to increase solar gain as much as possible. (but it looks like you are talking about adding solar panels to help directly power the heating/cooling systems?

    I didn't have a hand in the original build/layout so this will be a great opportunity for lots of modifications. I'll be replacing the ridge with metal once I have a few more lights in here. Every project takes a lot of research because I don't have all the foundational knowledge.

    Here's what I managed to get done this past weekend/yesterday evening after work:


    Header with backer board
    Lean to header.jpg
    Rafters on
    Lean to rafters on.jpg
    Purlins on
    Lean to purlins.jpg

    But I made a few rookie mistakes in my haste. First, the last purlin terminates about 10 inches from the end. So nearly a foot of metal roofing will be unsupported. Should I cut down a 2x4 and attach near the end? From my research, i think i overbuilt it but I wanted to be sure it was stable and wouldn't draw unnecessary attention. One of the concrete brackets felt a little loose on one end. I was going to look up some kind of concrete/metal/wood epoxy/adhesive to ensure there is a very strong connection at the base. I used the insertable simpson standoff brackets in the sonotubes.

    Dust collection will be moved out next.

    Any input is appreciated
    Last edited by Chris Pyle; 09-28-2021 at 5:11 PM.

  8. #8
    Don't get all that cold in southern Indiana for the most part. My shop here is 1,300 sq ft. I use a hanging garage furnace running on lp. Keep it at 50 and turn up if I'm working. I had mine installed but you can buy at Menards and install yourself pretty easy.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Bade View Post
    Don't get all that cold in southern Indiana for the most part. My shop here is 1,300 sq ft. I use a hanging garage furnace running on lp. Keep it at 50 and turn up if I'm working. I had mine installed but you can buy at Menards and install yourself pretty easy.
    Thanks Darrell, I'm thinking something similar right now.

    And here's where we currently are:

    Dust Collector is currently upright but I need to lift it another 12-18 inches so the main pipe is at least 9 feet in the air. It's currently sitting around 7.
    DC upright.jpg

    My uncle had the idea of putting the old container on the forks and strapping it down. Makes a very easy platform to work on when doing things up high. We have the first 6 shop lights up, 6 more to go.
    Installing lights.jpg

  10. #10
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    New question for the group:

    My DC is currently sitting where the main would come into the building a little above 6' high. I want it to be around 9' suspended. If I lift the DC as high as I possibly can, I can get it to 7.5 or 8'. Should I just install where it is and raise with a 45 upon entry into the building, then run at 9? Or should I go to the effort of raising the DC as high as I can, say 7.5-8' and raise the additional foot after entry into the shop? I want to keep the DC as efficient as possible.

    Thanks!

  11. #11
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    Raise the DC up if you have the headroom so you can eliminate the bendy-bendy thing to the inlet. A nice straight shot is preferable for best performance. The drop to the bin can be as long as it needs to be...it just needs to be fully sealed so no material goes through the impeller or have an automatic, sealed waste-gait that dumps into the container of choice.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Raise the DC up if you have the headroom so you can eliminate the bendy-bendy thing to the inlet. A nice straight shot is preferable for best performance. The drop to the bin can be as long as it needs to be...it just needs to be fully sealed so no material goes through the impeller or have an automatic, sealed waste-gait that dumps into the container of choice.
    Thanks Jim, I don't think I can get it high enough to under the lean-to, we'll see. I'll raise it as high as I can and assess once it's in the main building. I figured the "bendy bendy" would cause some interference. Sometimes you have to think these issues "out loud".

  13. #13
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    If your space inside allows, raise it up to the practical level you can outside, come through the wall straight for 4-6' and then do the "bendy-bendy" thing (gently) to whatever height you need within the shop. Everything comes with compromises when space is involved. Just do the best you can in the "direction of the ideal" and you'll be fine.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #14
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    About the "bendy-bendy".

    I had Oneida go over my duct design for a V-3000 I'm about to install (full disclosure, I've been about to install it for over 6 months but things keep getting in the way).

    In my design I used a 4' straight shot before a 45 angling up to another 45 at the level of the rest of the ducting.
    They changed it to a 90 a foot or two out of the input and a 90 a foot or two higher at the top. They obviously didn't think the6"bendy-bendy" was a problem.

    Cliff
    Mudhead: "Doesn't Louise count?" Porgy: "Only to 10, Mudhead."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Polubinsky View Post
    About the "bendy-bendy".

    I had Oneida go over my duct design for a V-3000 I'm about to install (full disclosure, I've been about to install it for over 6 months but things keep getting in the way).

    In my design I used a 4' straight shot before a 45 angling up to another 45 at the level of the rest of the ducting.
    They changed it to a 90 a foot or two out of the input and a 90 a foot or two higher at the top. They obviously didn't think the6"bendy-bendy" was a problem.

    Cliff
    Thanks Cliff, I appreciate the input. I'm trying to maximize the airflow but it's good to know they weren't too concerned. I'll go ahead and raise the DC as high as I can, likely in the 7-8 foot range as it enters the building, then I'll raise it the remaining 1-2 feet once inside.

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