Dog Holes and Vise Racking

[Pete Kairis]

I just finished a Schwarz Holtzapffel style bench build, which was very much a learning experience for me. It was my first "real" workbench, and I'm very happy with how it came out. The top is 3" thick laminated doug fir, 6' by about 28". I'm sticking with the 10" Record-style quick release vise as an end vise as per the plans, positioned as close as possible to the front without hitting the leg, but I have a few questions on the dog holes that I'd really appreciate some thoughts on. I've done a lot of searching on various forums for opinions and haven't really found a definitive answer (I'm guessing there is not a definitive answer, but nevertheless...).

I've attached a thick wood jaw to the end vise (the jaw is roughly 13" in length), so I can drill a dog hole anywhere in it, and drill a row of dog holes on the bench top in line with that. If I were to put the dog holes in line with vise screw, that puts them back roughly 6 3/4" from the front edge of the bench. I know many folks say that's too far back, and I can see the logic in that. If I were to put them say 2" from the front edge instead, then the holes are about 5" offset from the vise screw, which will obviously cause some racking when clamping a board for surface planing, etc.

So my questions...first, how much does a little bit of racking matter in practice? I guess my main concerns would be gradual damage to the vise over the long term or work constantly popping out of the dogs because of the skewness. I've done some mock up testing and it seems like the amount of skew would be minor (maybe 1/8" end to end) to get enough clamping pressure for planing with dogs at 2" in. But I don't know what the long term effect on the vise would be. Lots of folks seem to say racking is bad for a vise, but I'm not really sure exactly how...do the guide bars bend, or does it loosen up? There definitely seems to be a better hold in general with dogs in line with the screw, however.

And secondly, given that I'm not a dedicated hand tool guy, if I'm not often using fenced planes, how much does it even matter if the dog holes are very close to the edge? I do have an old fenced rabbet plane, but would honestly most likely just plop a board on my router table for that (at least, at this point in my life).

My current thinking is to stick with the dog holes in line with the vise screw for now (as per the original Schwarz plans), which would also double as the front row of holdfast holes. If down the road I find I need them closer, I can add another row, in which case the original row would still be used for holdfasts, so wouldn't be a waste. Although since this bench will also be used for many things other than straight woodworking, I'd rather not have any more holes than needed. A possible annoyance of only having the closer row would be having to skip holes were the legs are.

But I keep changing my mind...I sort of suspect either way would be fine for my purposes and I'm overthinking it. Any insights would be appreciated!

Pete

[Scott Winners]

Do you have a "deck of cards?" It should be searchable here. Mine is a stack of 1/8 plywood pieces, each about 2x4 inches nominal, with a bolt at one end. How ever thick a stack I need to keep the vise from racking goes in the jaws at the end away from the workpiece.

I will try to get pics tonight, but if I haven't posted in two hours I am not having a lovely evening on call...

EDIT: I would put the dog holes as close to the front edge of the bench as possible/ reasonable.

[Scott Winners]

I have seen a "deck of cards" type product on the Lee Valley website. Tonight I found quickly a deck of 52 playing cards from I think the gardening department, and had no joy in the vise section. The LV one I remember had several plastic leaves blah blah.

First pic is my short and tall decks perched on a 2x2. Second pic is the previously sized thick deck on one side of my vise screw, and the 2x2 clamped vertically on the other side of the vise screw.

The nut on the bolt is just tight enough that the individual leaves hold their position through friction, but I can move them around with no tools. I did use a safety nut, the kind with a little ring of plastic, so the nut would stay where I put it without a lot of drama. On my vise when I have the deck between the jaws within 1/8 of the same thickness as the work piece I feel fine applying all the torque I want to the tommy bar.

If you put your moving dog in the vise chop where my 2x2 is, and have a deck of cards thicker than the distance between your dog holes, you won't have to worry about jaw wracking.

[chris carter]

rackstop.jpg
My “deck of cards” or “rack-stop.” It’s 3-1/4 inches thick made up of 1/8^th oak strips with a bolt through it. In theory it could be used to counter racking when using dog holes. It would be cumbersome, but not too much. Never tried it though….

holes1.jpg
Here’s a picture of my bench and as you can see, my dog holes are a good 4 inches away from the edge and line up with my screw. I also read repeatedly that you want the dog holes as close to the edge as possible, but I didn’t want to deal with the racking. It honestly has never been a problem (my previous bench had the same style twin screw and also had the row of holes similarly for from the edge). I never really use the dog holes with my combo, groover, or hollows and rounds anyway - even if the boards are wide enough.

holes2.jpg
Here’s a shot of how I hold narrow stock for those kinds of tasks. I just use holdfasts on the other side of my bench. The reality is that if your dog holes are 2” from the edge, then you won’t be able to hold stock over the edge that is less than 2-1/2” anyway. I can hold stuff narrower than that with holdfasts. There are things it can’t do, but no work holding method is universally successful. So, although it hasn’t happened, for situations with really narrow boards, or when cutting too far in for the holdfasts, I might need a sticking board or some other jig, but you are likely to run into other complex issues even if your dog holes are only 1” from the edge of your bench.

There are other solutions you can try. For example, if your dog hole strip is accurately spaced, you can make a special dog with two dowels and a wide cap that extends all the way to the edge and then put two holes on your vise and make one that does the same thing down there.

I honestly don’t know what constantly racking the vise would do. For my vise I don’t think it would do anything. But mine is not a metal vise. I would be nervous of the long-term abuse of a metal vise racking hard constantly for years depending on the robustness of the vise. That said, I don’t pinch wood between dogs all that much in the first place – but you might do it all the time.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Pete,

Put a row of dog holes in line with the screw.

Put another row close to the edge and either install a Veritas Inset vise or use a Veritas Wonder Pup or Quick Release Wonder Dog for that row.

This gives you rack free clamping with the vise and the equivalent of a wagon vise at the front of the bench.

Cliff

[Richard Line]

I have a situation somewhat like yours. I put the dog holes in line with the vice's screw, about 5 in. from the bench's edge. That location hasn't been a problem for me. I also put another 2 dog holes in the vice's chop, about 3 in. from the center hole. These are to help hold non rectangular pieces and wide pieces. I also haven't found this to be a problem when I needed to use a rabbet plane (fenced) unless the work piece was fairly thin. For thin pieces I've found I usually can hold them at the edge of the bench using hold downs. I also have 2 decks of cards.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Pete and welcome to the Creek.

The length of your vise screw could cause a problem with having dog holes inline with the vise's scew.

There is a reason for benches having dog holes close to the edge. Simply enough it is because over the years woodworkers have found this to be most useful. A second row inline with the inside edge of the tail vise is also helpful for holding larger work or round pieces.

Scott and Chris have posted images of their solutions to racking, here is mine:

Anti-Rack Spacer Stack.jpg

You will have to become a contributor ($6 well spent) to see images.

It is made up of four leaves: 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 & 1", held together at one end by a dowel assembly. It has cutouts to fit over the screw and guide bar. It can be made to fit your vise's specific dimensions. For longer vise screws other pieces can be added. A 1/16" piece was made for times when a finer touch is needed.

All but the 1/8" leaf have steps to allow the smaller leaves to nest when not in use.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183743

The joint at the 1/8" leaf is rather delicate and subject to breaking if the stack isn't handled with care. Mine broke a couple of times before figuring out this weakness. It has been in use for many years now without damage.

The second advantage of racking stopping is when working with thin pieces the stack works as a regulator of how far the vise can close so the work doesn't buckle or bow.

Something else you may want to watch is Viceless Devices on Roy Underhill's "The Woodwright's Shop > https://www.pbs.org/video/woodwright...eless-devices/

jtkf

[Derek Cohen]

Pete, if you add a wooden chop inside the vise, one which has the inside face about 2-3” wider than the cast iron of the vise, then you could add the anti-wracking device I designed for a leg vise ….

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMad...tiRacking.html






Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan Schwabacher]

I don't know if they are as readily available today, but I have a set of free Formica samples to use on the far side of the vise.

But I usually use it without that, as holding work between dogs does not usually involve cranking down hard on the vise.

You will want dogs close to the front edge of the bench for versatility. It's even more important if you use fenced molding planes.

[Prashun Patel]

For a vise, the deck of cards shim does not have to be exact. As long as it's a little wider than the piece you are clamping on the other side, you'll be ok. If it's much more narrow than the clamped piece, your piece will not hold well.

For planing with dogs pinched by your vise, this won't be as big a deal, because you are planing into the dog - not across it. In fact, you don't want your dogs to pinch too tightly because they will cause your board to bow.

You mentioned wanting to use that row of holes for a hold fast. Beware that if your holes are in line with the screw, your holdfast may hit the screw. You might consider having 2 rows on each side of the screw - near the edges of the vise. You could then make planing stops that span the two dogs and use this to hold a board.

[Joe A Faulkner]

I have a twin screw tail vise and my dog holes are two inches off the front edge. I have a dog in the tail Vise chop lined up with the bench dogs but I find myself simply using hold fasts and battens most of the time, and the bench pup is often used. My bench is 84” long and I tend to gravitate towards the face vise end of the bench. My bench is also against a wall with a window over the tail end of the bench; thus most of my tools and main tool cabinet reside at the face Vice end of the bench as well. All this to say, depending on how you work, you may not use the tail vise that often to secure work from tail to head on your bench.

[Scott Winners]

I really like the concept of Derek's anti-racking bolt. I haven't built one yet for my bench, but it is on the someday list.

One drawback to using a deck of cards to prevent.

Squirrel. I just looked it up, wracking is the gerund or present participle of rack. I think that means when your vise jaws are moving out of alignment with each other they are wracking, but one the chop stops moving your vise is now racked. I think. Grammar was never my strong suit, it is down there with childbirth and talking the nice officer out of writing me a ticket among the things I am not good at.

One drawback to a deck of cards is the part sticking up above the bench top. It is nice to have the deck not fall to the floor when I am doing an operation on say all four aprons for a table, I can open the vise a little, slide the next piece in, close the vise and go on. I will someday have an anti wracking bolt like Derek's to prevent my vise chop from becoming racked, and nothing from the anti wracking device sticking out above the benchtop.

I do also, for what it is worth, hope to take a few classes before I build my next bench. I kinda sorta think I want a wagon vise, but I would a whole lot rather take a class or two and test drive some already installed end vises than build a different bench for one of every kind of end vise.

On my wooden screw vise if I am plus or minus 1/8 on the deck thickness versus the work piece thickness I can fearlessly torque the vise down as hard as I want. Metal screw vises, I dunno.

It is a caution for sure as they used to say back in the eastern north american mountains. If you mostly use the tail vise to clamp wide stock for flattening, you can put the dog holes in line with the vise screw and go to town. If you are using a bunch of molding planes to make baseboard or crown molding or whatever trim as a full time pro, you will want the dog holes as close to the front edge of the bench as you can put them (and probably own several sticking boards), but you won't need to put a lot of torque on the tommy bar.

Back to the original questions in the original post, wracking and racked suck hairy unspeakable donkey parts. My first bench vise was a hair under $20 from the homestore. I could get within 1/8 of a turn on the tommybar from the jaws wracking with my index finger clamped in the jaws. I couldn't quite take the pain, but almost. Once the vise jaws are racked, holding power falls off rapidly. A little bit of wracking is maybe OK in some situations, but in general, racked is a pain in one or another body part. It was the work popping out that drove me bananas.

Definitely better holding power (sans deck of cards) to put the holes inline with the vise screw.

Looking at paragraph five in post one, two items. One, do not put holdfasts in holes intended for vise dogs. I love my Doug Fir benchtop, you have no worries there. But holdfasts will "waller" out their holes over time.

Second, as I don't have a tail vise on my current bench and am using a planing stop with a hold fast and a board with a notch in one end, I have several doe's feet - the plan for holdfast holes in Chris Scwarz's 2020 work bench book makes sense. Basically space your holdfast holes as wide as you can to have no single spot on the bench where you can't womp on a holdfast. Once you have done that, filled a rectangle with overlapping circles, you will be able to place the business end of a hold fast at any point on the benchtop from two, sometimes three different hold fast holes.

Just don't count your dog holes among the holdfast locations in Doug Fir. Thinking of past threads here I honestly can't think of a wood you could have used for a bench top that will stand up to using holdfasts in dogholes. Maple is out, oak is out, poplar is out, SYP is out, I think I remember hickory is out. Doug Fir is a fabulous benchtop, I laminated 2x4 DF for my top and used 4x6 DF for my undercarriage. It is plenty stout, but the hold fast holes are going to grow over time. My first (current) bench with the Doug Fir top will be at my estate sale and last for a couple more generations in shop before moving on to be a potting bench in the greenhouse. If future generations can keep it dry enough to prevent rot it should last hundreds of years as a stout table.

You _might_ be able to use these doohickeys: https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...n?item=05G1401 ,the Veritas Hold-Down in a 3/4 dog hole without wallering out the hole. Do NOT take Derek Cohen's word for it. Derek's bench top is an Australian wood named Jarrah, the american word for jarrah is brass. The canadian word for jarrah is "rock." I don't know, I don't own any of the Veritas hold downs, but they show up a lot on you tube, and the folks here that own them rave about them.

I also found the Lee Valley Rack-Stop with the plastic leaves this time: https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop...p?item=09A0235 , but really this is a simple, rewarding piece of shop furniture to make yourself.

Gotta go, the wife wants me to fire up the wood stove as we are in late autumn here. Appreciate the diversion, good thread.

[Scott Winners]

On second thought Derek's bench top might be Tasmanian Oak. I don't have any design/engineering values for Tasmanian Oak, but I bet it is stouter than Doug Fir by a country mile.

[Derek Cohen]

My bench top is European Oak. 3 1/2" thick. The base is solid Jarrah. A moderately hard wood in Oz

Regards from Perth

Derek