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Thread: Sliding Table Saw - Slider Toe Out - Please Explain

  1. #1

    Question Sliding Table Saw - Slider Toe Out - Please Explain

    I purchased a used Grizzly G0623X that needs adjusting. This is my first slider. I've got the tools necessary to get it dialed in (dial indicators, machinist's level, etc.) and have been reading and watching a lot of how-tos online. But there's one thing that is REALLY confusing me - TOE OUT.

    From what I've read and watched, folks seem to set sliders to 0.001" - 0.002" of toe out across the face of the blade - so a distance of about 9" in my case. The Grizzly G0623X is small as far as sliders go, and has a slider capacity of about 5', so 0.001" across the blade equates to about 0.007" of total toe out.

    Here's where I'm getting confused... If the slider is toed out, and the wood is "fixed" to the slider, doesn't that mean the wood is also toeing out? Which means the cut won't (technically) be square?

    I drew what I think is happening in CAD, and even at "extreme" toe out values over the whole 5', the resulting angle is VERY, VERY close to square (89.95 deg). So, I'm guessing that what I think is happening mechanically is correct, but it's so minor it doesn't matter in real life. Can anyone confirm this?

    The reason I'm second guessing this is primarily because I watched a guy on YouTube with a really nice Martin slider show that he had 0.002" of toe out over his 12" or 14" blade, and then do the five-cut test. His result was perfect to the hundredth of a millimeter over a piece that appeared to be about 2' long, so equivalent to 8' because of how the five-cut test compounds error. Now, he didn't spin the saw blade when he did the toe out measurement and he added a caption to the video about hitting an expansion slot in the blade, so maybe his slider is PERFECTLY parallel to his blade and it was a bad test. But 0.002" across a 12" blade = 0.016" over 8' = 0.41 mm, which surely would have been detected on his digital calipers. It just seems highly unlikely he'd be able to achieve such a perfect result IF my thinking about the wood also toeing out is correct. Hence my confusion and the question...

    Here's the video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNUvF3q2IJk
    Toe out measurement at 08:40
    Results at 19:30

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    The cut line is parallel to the direction of the slider. It has nothing to do with the direction of the blade. Imagine if the cutter were a hot wire. The squareness of your cut depends on how square your crosscut fence is to the movement of the slider. Your blade only really needs to be aligned enough to not cause binding against the blade body. This parameter will vary between blades, so It's best to shoot for as close to perfect as you can get. Personally, I think toe out is a mistake that needs to be put to rest. Many people carry the practice over from cabinet saws, where it makes some sense, as it prevents binding between the fence and the blade. It makes a whole lot less sense when you start cutting on both sides of the blade.

  3. #3
    You need toe out on the slider for the same reason you need it on the rip fence, so the trailing edge of the board do get cut twice for lack of a better description, and yes it’s so little it doesn’t matter.

    I think you know this part but…Raise the blade all the way up, mark an x right behind a gullet, zero to that, move slider with gauge to the other end of saw blade, rotate blade measure at x…

    Then square your fence and you are golden, I’d have to check but pretty sure mind is dead nuts over 6’. Edit, just checked a post that I did on Instagram, was 0.0025 over 4.5 ft on my first attempt then tweaked it a bit and got 0.0000…. I left it at that, bet if I did again without adjustments I wouldn’t get that, hell probably never in a million years…

    also before you do that have you checked to make sure the slider is coplaner to the cast top and is above the cast the whole length? I would do that first…
    Last edited by Mark e Kessler; 07-25-2021 at 10:30 PM.

  4. #4
    I agree with Johnny on the need for toeout. I have the table travel and the rip fence parallel to the plane of the blade.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Western Nebraska
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    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny means View Post
    The cut line is parallel to the direction of the slider. It has nothing to do with the direction of the blade. Imagine if the cutter were a hot wire. The squareness of your cut depends on how square your crosscut fence is to the movement of the slider. Your blade only really needs to be aligned enough to not cause binding against the blade body. This parameter will vary between blades, so It's best to shoot for as close to perfect as you can get. Personally, I think toe out is a mistake that needs to be put to rest. Many people carry the practice over from cabinet saws, where it makes some sense, as it prevents binding between the fence and the blade. It makes a whole lot less sense when you start cutting on both sides of the blade.
    I agree completely, except that I'll go further and say I don't think it makes any sense what so ever on a cabinet saw either. This old myth needs put to rest.

  6. #6
    It may be an old myth but the reality is either parallel or toe out can work, I have had it both ways in the past 30 years and currently prefer toe out…

  7. #7
    I tried it both ways on my other cabinet saw. I personally prefer no toe out on my cabinet saw as I get perfect cuts and so far haven’t had any issues with the wood binding or causing any issues due to no toe out. I have had my cabinet saw setup like this for many years. I only recently got a slider and it has toe out on the sliding carriage but I can’t figure out how to adjust it and it’s driving me nuts. LoL. I might start a separate thread on this matter. My slider is a Griggio sc3200b which is I believe identical to a Holzher 1243 and probably many other brands as it is a common design. If anybody knows how to adjust this on my saw please post up.

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Matt,
    I am the guy that made that video and that blade is a 12" (300mm) blade. Toe-out is necessary on the sliding table trajectory since we can seldom adjust things to where they are perfect and blades can vary so you don't want to have to check this every time. The cut is made at the leading edge of the blade and toe-out is intentionally built in to avoid cutting by the trailing edge of the blade. While there are some safety aspects of this, it is especially important for quality of cut in melamine sheet goods and veneers. The squareness of cut is determined by the crosscut fence square to the trajectory of the sliding table. The logic is the same for toe-out of a rip fence.

    I have used a slider for the past 17 years and the only problem I have ever noted with toe=out setup is when I use the sliding table in combination with the rip fence pulled back and used as a gage stop to cut thin strips for edgebanding on the offcut side as it will generate a very slight taper over the length of the strip. The reason for this is the sliding table trajectory and rip fence both have toe-out but in opposite directions. To compensate for this I typically use a piece of painters tape on the rip fence to essentially eliminate the toe-out on that side.

    David Best recently posted a video on adjusting the sliding table on a Felder saw that may also provide some useful insights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s2a02XI3BQ

    Steve
    Last edited by Steve Rowe; 07-26-2021 at 11:08 AM.

  9. #9
    " toe-out is intentionally built in to avoid cutting by the trailing edge of the blade"

    Toe-out on the sliding carriage will necessarily induce cutting by the trailing edge of the blade on the offcut, so unless you recut that piece the problem remains.

    "
    the only problem I have ever noted with toe=out setup is when I use the sliding table in combination with the rip fence pulled back and used as a gage stop"

    That's another reason for eliminating toe-out. If you think you need toe-out go for it, but I have had no problems without it.

  10. #10
    If you set it perfectly parallel and no other variables are introduced then yea it can work, even if you get a little recut or burn/rub on occasion is it really a problem? nope not generally. If one has their saw set “parallel” and never ever, ever…ever… has the recut/burn/rub then I would be checking my measuring methods/equipment because if it never occurs you are more likely to be toe out…

    one of the other issues i found with “parallel” for me on the Rip fence (which I typically would want very close if not parallel) is that my extrusion is not perfectly straight, it actually has a slight hook in it so depending on where i set the extrusion (forward/back) i am either toe in, zero, tow out… so if you have an aluminum extrusion I would check it in multiple spots as I would imagine it’s fairly common for the extrusions to not be perfectly “parallel”, I marked mine so i know if i am +,-,0…
    Last edited by Mark e Kessler; 07-26-2021 at 11:51 AM.

  11. #11
    what you do and how do you work.

    Ive rammed tons of solid through saws where set up a few thou heal clearance would make no difference. Ideally rough material was jointed one edge before the rough rip but often skipped that and ripped crown to the fence leaving extra that was needed plus any more for tension release. I had no splitter so enough times material was closing on the heal of the blade. Even if I had jointed that stuff as I should have before ripping theres still a tension release on lots of it. There goes your clearance.

    Most people use a splitter or riving knife so eliminate most of the heal pinching that could occur. You can set it up as accurate as you want but the material and how you work will have dynamics. I was on cabinet saws and didnt have the benefit to pull a fence back. A board could have been clamped on the fence as well but never did that just put the material through the saw.

    Mark makes a good point. I bet many fences are not truly straight, my besemeiyer at least on the rip saw is not straight. The SCM was pretty close to bang on have to check it again.

    OP there have to be adjustments on your saw. On the SCM there are several adjustments more than enough. Its just getting it dialed in. You should be able to find parrallel on your slider even with out a dial just run the saw and make a cut and see if you are rubbing on the heal of the blade when you get there or not that will as a start show you how you are in relation to the blade. Then you can square the back or front fence after that. Your ear can tell you alot and its what you saw is doing rather than a dial on a blade that is likely not even flat.

    Last edited by Warren Lake; 07-26-2021 at 12:01 PM.

  12. #12
    Thanks, everyone! Great info, and the David Best video was also very helpful!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
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    Kalamazoo, MI
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    Good luck dialing that saw in to that level of precision.

  14. #14
    Adjusting toe out, in or parallel is simple, leveling the slider to the cast is where it becomes a difficult potentially tail chasing “i’m gona jump off a cliff” kind of event…lol

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Redwood City, CA
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    166
    I recently adjusted the toe out and the slider height on my hammer and while I'm nowhere near perfect, it's better than it came from the factory. I learned the hard way that when I tightened up my slider in place those turns on the adjustment slightly moved the toe out on the slider. It was a painful experience with all the back and forth dialing it in to have the first thing I set bounce out at the end. I had multiple iterations of this over the course of a week and I ended up taking it back to scratch and loosening everything. I settled somewhere in between what I started with and what I hoped for.

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