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Thread: Roughing Tools (Gouges) and 40-40 Grind?

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post

    Or, perhaps every grind is a gimmick for someone-- lots of people have spent money for a "signature" gouge pre-sharpened with an Irish grind variant.
    Gimmick is right.
    I don't know why but people constantly buy tools that are marketed as a BOB gouge or an Irish grind or a signature blah blah blah.
    It's your tool, grind it how you want to, what works best for you.
    Buy a Benjamin's best or a Harbor freight tool and experiment.
    Diameter and flute shape are far more important factors than the grind when purchasing tools.
    When I buy a new tool, the grind doesn't come into play, since I'll more than likely put my own grind on it as soon as I get it home or delivered.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Weber View Post
    Gimmick is right.
    I don't know why but people constantly buy tools that are marketed as a BOB gouge or an Irish grind or a signature blah blah blah.
    It's your tool, grind it how you want to, what works best for you.
    Buy a Benjamin's best or a Harbor freight tool and experiment.
    Diameter and flute shape are far more important factors than the grind when purchasing tools.
    When I buy a new tool, the grind doesn't come into play, since I'll more than likely put my own grind on it as soon as I get it home or delivered.
    Don’t disagree with most, but some. I agree each has their grind on a tool that they like. However not all gouges are the same. A BOB gouge is different from a standard bowl gouge and requires a different grind. See post "Mystery Gouge” for dimensional differences. If the grind is 60 degree or some other angle that is user preference. Many of the signature tools have different flute shapes. Again the angle is user preference, but the design may be more fitting to an individual preference.
    When working I had more money than time. In retirement I have more time than money. Love the time, miss the money.

  3. #18
    I brought up flute shape as a distinguishing characteristic in another thread, I failed to here. (my mistake)

    1. The point is that some tools are sold as different when the only real difference is the grind.
    2. Some tools actually have a different flute shape and are indeed, a different tool.
    Other than U,V and parabolic, I'm not sure what other flutes shapes are very common.
    I would say I believe the fist category outweighs the second.

  4. #19
    A conundrum of sorts. Any tool can be ground a number of different ways. I don't know if I would buy a signature tool because of who has their name on it, but the flute shape can make big differences as well as how it is ground.

    I don't use a swept back grind any more. They are generally 60 or so degree nose bevels, and the wings are ground back maybe twice the diameter of the tool. To me, it is more of a 'one tool does it all' type of gouge. To me, the more specialized tools, in this case bowl gouges, do the job better. The 40/40 for the outside, and down the walls on the inside, then the specialized BOB tool for the transition and across the bottom. The U flutes do not make for a good swept back grind or 40/40 grind tool. I don't think I ever tried to grind a half round flute to a swept back grind or a 40/40, but the ones I have are the first set I ever bought from Craft Supplies. Parabolic and the more open V shaped flutes will make fine 40/40 tools and swept back grind tools. The deeper V flute like on the old Glaser tools did not do well with these grinds. They did plug up when I tried to do heavy roughing with them.

    Pretty much any flute shape can be ground to a BOB tool, and some work better than others. I do prefer a ) nose shape. The V gouges are on my least preferred flute shape, but the half round, U shaped, detail gouges, and the fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson all make excellent BOB tools.

    I am blessed or cursed with having to experiment with 'different' things....

    robo hippy

  5. #20
    I asked Stuart Batty during his AAW Symposium demo conversation today if he preferred a parabolic or 'V' flute for the 40/40 grind and he said parabolic (elliptical). In part, because he said the V shape can be slightly harder to sharpen correctly (obviously not for him). Specifically, blending the nose and wing can be more challenging. I found this interesting.

    I have yet to try the grind, but that may inform my decision on which gouge to buy for this purpose.
    Last edited by Allen Mattsen; 07-18-2021 at 9:29 PM.

  6. #21
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    I'm not a good or experienced enough turner to tell the differences in performance between the subtly different flute shapes (perhaps in another 40 years...); but different grinds on the same tool certainly perform differently and do different kinds of cuts better or worse. I suggest people starting off pick one of the general purpose grinds on any gouge that is not some weird, extreme shape and master its use. Then try something else to see whether it offers any improvement for your work.

    I used only an Ellsworth/Irish grind on a Henry Taylor "Superflute" gouge for the first 20 some years. I now have two more from Doug Thompson, one ground for BOB (which I find I almost never use) and one ground 40/40. I find myself reaching for the 40/40 tool quite a lot when roughing.

    My HT tool was getting pretty short so I recently bought a "signature" gouge made by Thompson (to get a parabolic flute he doesn't sell in his regular line) that came with a version of what I know as a "standard" bowl grind-- not swept as far back as the irish, relatively straight wings). Tried it for a while and didn't find it as useful as my usual Ellsworth style, so reground it to the Ellsworth shape. Given how long the Thompson gouges last I may not get a chance to compare the parabolic to his usual shape.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post
    ...I suggest people starting off pick one of the general purpose grinds on any gouge that is not some weird, extreme shape and master its use. Then try something else to see whether it offers any improvement for your work.
    ...
    That's good advice. My opinion based on experience and observation is a skilled turner can pick up nearly any sharp tool with any grind and after an experimental cut or two can make it work well. There are big differences in some but often they are subtle. Notice I said "sharp".

    JKJ

  8. #23
    As far as difficulty of sharpening a V flute compared to a parabolic flute, it is all about how you roll the tool. If you have a half round flute, you roll at the same rate, smooth and steady. With a parabolic flute, you roll at pretty much the same rate, but less time around the nose. With a V flute, I sharpen the wing first, and then a quick roll onto the nose. If you go slow around the nose arc, you can over grind just past dead center, and you get a little scallop or bird's beak as I have heard it called. It was not a difficult thing to figure out and correct for me.

    robo hippy

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Reed Gray View Post
    As far as difficulty of sharpening a V flute compared to a parabolic flute, it is all about how you roll the tool. If you have a half round flute, you roll at the same rate, smooth and steady. With a parabolic flute, you roll at pretty much the same rate, but less time around the nose. With a V flute, I sharpen the wing first, and then a quick roll onto the nose. If you go slow around the nose arc, you can over grind just past dead center, and you get a little scallop or bird's beak as I have heard it called. It was not a difficult thing to figure out and correct for me.

    robo hippy

    That's just about exactly how I sharpen mine. The wings and the transition area take the most attention as there is more material to be removed. It only takes a second or two on the very tip to blend in the two sides.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Reed Gray View Post
    As far as difficulty of sharpening a V flute compared to a parabolic flute, it is all about how you roll the tool. If you have a half round flute, you roll at the same rate, smooth and steady. With a parabolic flute, you roll at pretty much the same rate, but less time around the nose. With a V flute, I sharpen the wing first, and then a quick roll onto the nose. If you go slow around the nose arc, you can over grind just past dead center, and you get a little scallop or bird's beak as I have heard it called. It was not a difficult thing to figure out and correct for me.

    robo hippy
    Thank you. I'd like to ask you why you decided to use 45° instead of 40 and what do you like about it as opposed to the 40°? What's different in how you use it or how it performs?

  11. #26
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    In metal machining the material removal rates of a machine are directly related to the horsepower at the spindle. Other variables have a minor effect. I suspect wood cutting is the same, the more power, the faster the wood comes off. A sharp tool and a 3-4 HP motor will remove a huge pile of chips regardless of the gouge. Using 5/8 gouge with minimal HP won't perform well, regardless of the grind IMHO. I like making sawdust so I keep my tools sharp and they work for me, even if they weren't ground perfectly.

    Jim

  12. #27
    Find and join a woodturning group in your area. Most likely there will be several people willing to get together with you and let you try several different flute shapes and grinds at the same time, before purchasing something.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stephan View Post
    Find and join a woodturning group in your area. Most likely there will be several people willing to get together with you and let you try several different flute shapes and grinds at the same time, before purchasing something.
    I've done this and it's exactly why I want to investigate the 40/40 👍😎

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Barkelew View Post
    In metal machining the material removal rates of a machine are directly related to the horsepower at the spindle. Other variables have a minor effect. I suspect wood cutting is the same, the more power, the faster the wood comes off. A sharp tool and a 3-4 HP motor will remove a huge pile of chips regardless of the gouge. Using 5/8 gouge with minimal HP won't perform well, regardless of the grind IMHO. I like making sawdust so I keep my tools sharp and they work for me, even if they weren't ground perfectly.

    Jim
    I've found I can take nearly full 5/8" shavings with my 5/8" Jaimeson/parabolic bowl gouge with my 3HP lathe. It's a blast!
    I have to keep getting better, find efficiency, and continue to develop my eye for form, as well as fill out my tools and tool choices (among other things). Seems like a large, long handled, stable 3/4 gouge may also be fun - and perhaps better than that: absorb more of the contact my body takes while roughing large, out of balance material.

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