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Thread: Roughing Tools (Gouges) and 40-40 Grind?

  1. #1

    Question Roughing Tools (Gouges) and 40-40 Grind?

    What are your favorite tools for roughing bowls?

    I'm without a large bandsaw at present and am considering ideas on how to best rough out larger bowls, etc.

    I have 3/8, 1/2 and 5/8" bowl gouges. I'm interested in learning the 40/40 grind and techniques and wonder what the best tools are to add to my growing arsenal.

    I'm thinking of getting another 5/8 Thompson, this time V-fluted for a 40/40 grind. My current 5/8" is a Jaimeson w/ Ellsworth grind.

    What about a 3/4" bowl gouge? I wonder about the flute shape and grind ideal for the 3/4 if it's NOT a bottom feeder but used primarily for roughing out-of-round, more difficult material on my Laguna 2436.

    I've only been turning since January, so go easy 😅

  2. #2
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    You may find the following video of Stuart Batty demonstrating 40/40 grind useful

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhlM...l=DeniseSawyer

    I would also suggest watching Stuarts videos on YouTube
    Last edited by Brian Deakin; 07-15-2021 at 4:14 AM.

  3. #3
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    for what its worth, I'd suggest roughing with the Ellsworth grind is the way I'd go. It can take a huge shaving, getting the blank through the roughing process with a minimum of fuss. Starting from a blank with the corners lopped off with the chainsaw is an adventure at times, but goes pretty quickly to a more balanced form. Watch one of Lyle Jamieson's videos on roughing out.

    I've been experimenting with the 40/40 grind and find it useful once the blank is round and pretty well balanced but still rely on the swept back grinds for most of the hogging off. If I had more experience with the 40/40 I might feel differently, but I've been doing it this way for nearly two decades now and it works for me. Old habits die hard...

    I find the Thompson 5/8" Jamieson gouge to be just about the perfect roughing tool. The parabolic flute takes the Ellsworth grind well and its stout enough to do most of the work of a 3/4" gouge while small enough to manipulate nearly as well as a 1/2" gouge.
    Last edited by Jeffrey J Smith; 07-15-2021 at 7:20 AM.

  4. #4
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    You can waste a lot of wood in a hurry with either the 40/40 or the Ellsworth. I think the 40/40 is a little faster and easier for hogging off big roughing cuts, but we're not talking more than a couple minutes on a big blank.

    I knock the corners off with a chain saw and then mount on the lathe, I haven't found the extra band saw rounding step to be either faster or easier.

  5. #5
    I'd go with the 5/8" gouge regardless of grind. The larger flute leaves more room for chips and debris to be removed quickly. A 3/4" would work but is usually a bit heavy and they just don't seem to get as much all around use, a 5/8" is more of a sweet spot.
    The 40/40/ grind works for SB but it's not the be all end all of grind profiles.
    If the primary job for this tool is roughing, develop your own grind that suits you. Your body size, your handle position, your method of work etc, not what someone else tells you is the right grind.
    JMHO

  6. #6
    Well, being an oddball, I prefer a 1 inch Big Ugly tool, which is a scraper with a hard metal silver soldered on the end. Traditional for the Oregon Coastal myrtlewood turners. If I am going to use a gouge, I use the 5/8, either Thompson or D Way. I do have one 3/4 inch D Way gouge, and didn't like it. I don't use the swept back gouges at all any more. I replaced them with the 40/40 and several different BOB (bottom of bowl) tools.

    As for taking off huge shavings, it can be done if you have the skills, sharp tools, and the horse power to drive your bowl blank through all that wood. The swept back gouges can pull off a very wide shaving. The 40/40 can't pull off as wide of a shaving as a swept back, but it can pull off a thicker shaving. With my Big Ugly tool, I can pull off wide or narrow shavings depending on what I am doing with it.

    I have a bunch of bowl turning videos up on You Tube. Scary Scrapers is one where I demo the Big Ugly. Shear Scraping is another. Haven't done NRSs yet, Negative Rake scrapers. Sharpening as well....

    robo hippy

  7. #7
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    My rougher is a 5/8 Thompson V gouge. I find the V gouge to already be really aggressive, so the 40/40 makes it even more aggressive IMO. I can't do the final cuts that SB does with it, I just saw him a couple years ago, still trying to grasp exactly how to use the 40/40. I've always been using a 65 degree Ellsworth for everything.

    I also think I should mention that Ron Brown sells a 40/40 jig setting tool for the Wolverine. I can't hand sharpen, I been using a Tormek. Ground away a lot of my Thompson trying to learn to get that 40/40. The RB set up jig works like a champ IMO. Saves a lot of metal for ME, since I have a hard time hand sharpening.

  8. #8
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    I have both a Thompson 5/8" U and V gouge. I use with a swept back grind. I used the u-gouge when first cutting a lot of air but as soon as I can get enough round to ride the bevel for a push cut, I switch to the v-gouge. I prefer the v-gouge for smoother push cuts. I haven't tried a40/40 grind yet. On my to-do list.

  9. #9
    Ive been using traditional tools for maybe a couple weeks or so, just now starting to get some color back in my knuckles.I have a 3/4" Carter and Son 40/40 and a 5/8" Carter and Son Parabolic Mahoney Style.
    I'm learning to sharpen with the Kodiak System and have a 10-347 bandsaw coming in next month. I should be able to give advice in a week or two

  10. #10
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    Cut the blank into an octagon with a chainsaw first. Then the 5/8 gouge you have will be fine. Larger is a very vague term for size, but I just assume the chainsaw will work well. In my opinion, that 40/40 is a gimmick used to make demo and tool money on the demo circuit.

  11. #11
    Surprised there has not been a question which type of cut is to be used - push or pull. If a new concept, Lyle Jamieson has Youtube video on each.

    My preference is to do all the rough shaping with a pull cut, and a thompson 5/8" bar diameter spindle gouge is wonderful. I did try pulling with a bowl gouge, just long enough to confirm R Raffan's statement that a bowl gouge flute can get clogged with the shavings. Yes, the surface can be rough if the spindle gouge wing is not sharp, bugt I always finish with push cuts anyway.

  12. #12
    Great stuff here folks.

    Glad to hear about the Ron Brown jig being a possible option.

    One of these days I'll have to find someone to help weld me a Big Ugly tool. The guy I bought my chainsaw from in Portland had one on his wall and I knew exactly what it was, though not for sale. Maybe a drive to visit Mr. Reed some day. I bet I'd learn a ton.

    I had considered really dropping some coin on a large bandsaw for cleaning up blanks. Well, I'm still considering it.

    I have watched a ton of S. Batty videos re: the 40/40 (and a few others showing it as well.) One of our club members spent time with Stuart, knows it, and I think can teach me directly. I did try a 1/2" Thompson V w/ 40/40 while with him a few weeks ago which still registers positively with me. I wanted to pick up another gouge or two before trying to make that happen so as to be prepared and also learn to sharpen them.

    Still trying to figure out the 3/4 gouge stuff. I've held a Thomson w/ 20" handle in my hands and it is a substantial bit of metal! I didn't know what flute it had. Seems a lot of the 3/4s out there are some specialized 'named' tool or a U shaped flute. I've seen some grind a BOB type 3/4 into a swept back or 40/40 grind if I remember correctly...

  13. #13
    Well, it surprises me to hear people commenting that the 40/40 grind is 'aggressive'. I never noticed that any particular tool was aggressive, because to me it is all based on how much push you are putting into the cut, not the tool itself. Brings to mind the old song by the Seeds, for you garage band freaks, Pushing Too Hard. A common problem. I do use a push cut with it and the flutes tend to be more up than sideways.

    The pull cut is another one that mystifies me. As near as I can tell, most of the time a swept back gouge is used. The handle is dropped. I have seen people doing the identical cut, but some stand on the push side and some stand on the pull side.

    I did look at the Ron Brown jig. It does require a 3 inch protrusion. There is a post by Dennis Gooding on the AAW site where he figured out how to do it with the Wolverine jig, in the tips and tutorials section of the AAW Forum. I didn't really understand it and didn't really try to figure it out since I don't use the Wolverine jig.

    robo hippy

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Reed Gray View Post
    I never noticed that any particular tool was aggressive, because to me it is all based on how much push you are putting into the cut, not the tool itself.

    robo hippy
    Exactly.
    How you present to tool to the wood affects how aggressive a cut will be.

    I understand when people say aggressive or grabby (I've said it too) but it's either the incorrect tool for the cut or improper tool presentation.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Coers View Post
    In my opinion, that 40/40 is a gimmick used to make demo and tool money on the demo circuit.
    Doubt it sells many tools, it's just a reshaping that can be done on most any gouge. Most of us already have spares. Certainly if you find no benefit to it you shouldn't bother. Some of us find it useful some of the time.

    Or, perhaps every grind is a gimmick for someone-- lots of people have spent money for a "signature" gouge pre-sharpened with an Irish grind variant.

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