Veritas skew rabbet sharpening challenges

[Scott Winners]

If you have one, can you look and see if the iron isn't bedded 8 degrees away from perpendicular to the mouth when viewed frm above please? I think it must be.

I got in a set of 30 degree skew jaws for my LN honing guide, the current Lee Valley website describes the cutting angle as 30 degrees, but the iron I just got in the mail today (Veritas skew rabbet) is ground at 22 degrees from perpendicular to the blade axis.

The simplest explanation is the iron is bedded not perpendicular to the mouth when viewed from above.

I am planning to take all my bits to my machinist Monday, so feel free to kick this around a little bit. I just have too much clock time coming up to get there any sooner.

Option one, looks bad, I could have the edges of the iron reground so that I can use the 30 degree LN jaws, but that is going to a LOT of material off the iron. I would probably have to replace the adjusting screws on the plane body and who knows how well it would function in KD hickory.

Option two, looks expensive and risky, I could have my LN 30 degree jaw set remachined to 22 degrees. They look like they are made out of really good steel, and then I wouldn't have them anymore.

Option three looks like the way to go: Ask my machinist to make a set of 22 degree jaws that could attach to my LN honing guide out of, gosh, 1065 would be fine, and just use those. I would probalby need two sets made of slightly different length, one for the primary bevel and the other longer set for the secondary bevel.

I shall upload pictures before you fall asleep.

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As pictured in the last two pics only the short corner is on the graph paper. The rest of the edge rises off the graph paper - at about 8 degrees. So the penciled bevel angles are just estimates.

The way the iron on my Record 778 is shaped I can use an ecclipse style guide and grind 25 degree primary with the jaws on the narrow upper portion of the blade, and a secondary starting at about 30 degrees (or higher) with the jaws on the wide part of the iron closer to the edge. The tapered or flaring portion of the Veritas iron is a bit more generous than the Record.

The fundamental problem in my shop is space. I have been working too much OT for about five years, with insane clock hours since March 2020, so I have money and not a lot of time, but the biggest problem in my shop is actually space. I can buy all kinds of stuff I don't have room for, I would truly rather, in this season of life, blow a couple hundred on a custom jaw set than make room for another guide.

Anyway, thanks for your comments, this problem is getting solved.

[Scott Winners]

And solid geometry is not my strong suit. I laid both blades out on graph paper and find the flaring or tapering length of my Record 778 iron is 1/2 inch on axis, but on Axis the same changing width length of the Veritas blade is only 3/8".

For now my plan is to have 22 degree jaws made overlong and grind off what is in the way.

[John Erickson]

I'd modify the existing set of LN 30* jaws and order a replacement set. The Veritas Instruction Guide (2090 KB, PDF) says to skew is 22*

[Derek Cohen]

Scott, don't mess with the Veritas blades. If you are intent on using the LN guide, then create a set of jaws to hold the blade.

An alternative: Personally, I hollow grind these blades, and then freehand them on the hollow. I last had to hollow grind them (I have a left and right) several years ago. I use mine often, which says this method is very efficient.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kevin Jenness]

I agree with Derek- just freehand them. You can hollow grind them just up to the edge so you don't lose the angle.

[Brian Hale]

Mine reads 15 degrees on both the honing guide and dial protractor. I'd suggest freehand honing but avoid changing the blade angle. Perhaps ask LN if they have any suggestions.20210714_143338.jpg20210714_143653.jpg

[Scott Winners]

Mine reads 15 degrees on both the honing guide and dial protractor.

This explains some of the murkiness I encountered reading up on this plane online. Brian's iron's outline is different from my iron's outline.

Thanks for input so far.

[lowell holmes]

The bevel is 40 degrees and the blade angle is 62 degrees. I measured using a Swanson speed square.
This is a Veritas Skew Rabbet Plane.
Rob Lee reads this site. He may very well comment. I have five of his planes.
If you desire, I will trace the outline of the iron and mail it to you.

[Scott Winners]

If Rob does comment my biggest question would be what can Brian Hale do if he needs a replacement iron?

In my online research on a website other than this one I found two posters going after each other with venom, one insisting the edge is ground 22 degrees off axis to the iron, the other insisting the edge is ground 15 degrees off axis.

Brian's (earlier style?) iron with a straight side on what I think of as the heel end of his edge has a hexagonal relief hole and is convincingly ground 15 degrees off axis. My current production iron has some taper or flare on both sides of the iron, an oval relief hole in the middle and is convincingly ground at 22 degrees off axis. The only skew rabbet blades on the Lee Valley website right now this minute have the oval relief hole and taper or swell on both sides of the iron.

Looking more carefully at the pics of the plane online at Lee Valley, I think the iron probably is mounted a bit off axis to the axis of the plane and am willing to believe the product offers a 30 degree cutting angle even though the edge of my iron is only 22 degrees off axis to the iron.

Lowell if you had pictures in your post I can't see them.

That still leaves me with the sharpening problem. I am not putting one of these on backorder (currently expected Dec 03, 2021) until I know I can keep it sharp with a square edge. There is no tolerance here. I can't just fiddle with the lever like on a Bailey. This iron needs to be right.

I can't free hand. Not really. I can get a sharp edge, but I can't keep the edge square to the axis of the blade. I confessed this publicly here, gosh about a year ago. When I first got my LN guide in one of the first tools to go in it was my 1" LN chisel that doesn't fit in my Eclipse clone, and I found out right away my freehand edge was not square.

I am reluctant to bring in the Veritas top clamping guide. I am sure it can do the job, but I am also confident I would be one of the users that pushes too hard or whatever it is folks are doing wrong that lets their irons rotate in the guide.

Agree with Derek I am not going to modify the iron shape to work in 30 degree jaws. As soon as I drew it I saw it as taking way too much metal away, as a biologist; I am not an engineer.

FWIW I did first look for a replacement iron for my Record 778 in modern steel. It seems to me (I certainly stand to be corrected by those more knowledgable), my Record 778 uses the same blade outline Stanley introduced in the #75 in the 1880s. The first ones had no depth adjuster mechanism at all. Then there were the slots cut in the underside of the iron with a thumb lever for depth, and then finally the screw type depth adjuster like I have. To make a replacement iron to work in all three styles would be lot of machine work and a very high price for a replacement iron. Or a bunch of different SKUs with the correspondingly high price that way.

My 778 works fine in softwood, my only beef with my 778 is edge retention in hardwood. If LN made a rabbet plane that works with the LN guide I would probably buy it, I think I could put a fairly steep secondary bevel on A2 and be happy with edge retention in hickory.

For now my plan is to toddle over to my machinist Monday morning with a box full of pieces and ask what he can do or who he knows. I am really dreading the trig I will have to slog through to come up with where the screw holes would have to be in how wide stock so I could grind both a primary bevel at 25 degrees and a secondary bevel at 30 degrees on a current production stock iron. If you are good at 3-D math and want a pair of 22 degree jaws for your LN guide drop me a message.

Kudos to Lee Valley for an innovative rabbet plane. Kudos to Lie-Nielsen for a guide that can handle any parallel sided blade except the Lee Valley skew rabbet.

[J. Greg Jones]

Brian should know what plane his blade came out of, but it sure doesn’t look like the blade from my Veritas Skew Rabbet plane. I’ve owned this plane for many years now and the blade for it is skewed at 22*. Combined with the 8* skew of the frog, the blade does address the wood at a 30* combined angle. The narrower width of Brian’s blade combined with the 15* angle would suggest to me that perhaps it is from a skew block plane?

[Michael Bulatowicz]

If you’re intent on getting some jaws made for the LN honing guide, there’s a relatively simple solution (at least in concept). I’d suggest a set of jaws that holds the cutting edge square to the guide. Once the cutting edge is square to the honing guide, there’s no longer any special trigonometry involved, and you’ll be able to use your favorite angle setting jig for the primary and secondary bevels you want.

[J. Greg Jones]

I’m sure Rob will chime in at some point, so as a suggestion I sure would like to see Lee Valley make jaws for their skewed blades (skew block, skew rabbet, side rabbet, etc.) that mount to the LN jig. I know that will be highly unlikely, as they have their own solutions to sharpening these blades, but clearly LN is never going to offer jaws specific to Veritas blades in their jig.

[Brian Hale]

I'm sorry, that's the blade from the skewed block plane, not the rabbet plane. I apologize for creating more confusion.

[lowell holmes]

I did not post pictures. I hone my irons on diamond hones freehand.

[Scott Winners]

there’s a relatively simple solution (at least in concept). I’d suggest a set of jaws that holds the cutting edge square to the guide. Once the cutting edge is square to the honing guide, there’s no longer any special trigonometry involved.

I know all y'all have been helping, but this one clicked for me. I got pics, and I didn't have to do any trig. Thank you Michael.

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First pic is the 30 degree jaws that are the same width as the carriers on the honing guide, demonstrating that if these exact jaws had been cut to 22 degrees instead of 30 degrees they would have a substantial grip on the thin part of the iron (the tang I have been thinking of it) for honing a 25 degree primary bevel.

Second pic is the best option I found in my existing jaw set for honing a secondary bevel at 30 degrees. These are the "short" ends of the long jaws that stick put 5/8" past the body of the honing guide. They have, in my experience with my Record 778 iron, enough grip on the wide part of the blade to work for several years before my secondary bevel angle will have to creep upwards from 30 degrees.

Third pic is full scale drawing in fractional inches on decimal inch graph paper. I need the "7/16 inch?" back to make this work. I did free hand the screw heads. The jaw on the right needs to be smaller, pushing the third screw from the left closer to the iron to get my 7/16" back.

Fourth is the same drawing with the 30 degree jaws and the honing guide on it, the body of the guide will open far enough to hold the two custom jaws when I recover that 7/16 inch.