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Thread: Flooring question

  1. #16
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    I took a "break" from the flooring because costs were just way too expensive - for 2x6 T&G I was quoted in the ballpark of $4,000 for materials (checked with multiple vendors) back in July. Fast forward to October in the same year (this year, of course)... around $1,600 for the same materials. I guess supply chain disruptions will do that!

    Instead of doing the floor, over the summer I installed stone veneer around the foundation - this checks one thing off my list, and oddly enough the stone prices were no different from what I had estimated pre-COVID. I just have a tiny section to grout (in the middle of carving a cornerstone with date), then can move onto the flooring.

    I still have to make some HVAC decisions, so at the moment I'll just be putting in the decking.

    Finally, I don't know what comparison everyone is using, but for electric heat, ours is priced at $0.11/kWh (they have a special heating rate schedule... which appears to be identical to our regular rate). Compared to natural gas... it always seems to be much more expensive - but maybe someone can confirm or correct my calculations?

    Electric is $0.11/kWh


    Gas is $2.9093/MCF (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/m...t_492741_7.pdf)


    If I’m calculating right, that’s about $0.009/kWh in gas?

  2. #17
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    John, consider a higher end mini-split that works down below 0ºF instead of resistance heat or gas. VERY economical to run and you get AC, too.

    I'm not surprised at the flooring cost experience you had. Your earlier quote was near the peek; things have settled down considerably now.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #18
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    Jan 2009
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    Thanks for all the replies - 2x8 T&G KD SYP #2 or better decking has been ordered. The company that mills this stuff was able to give me a slightly better price than my latest quote (from a few weeks ago) - not sure if this was because prices fell further or because I'm a cash sale (credit card, but still...).

    The boards are 1.375" x 7":

    TG-2x8.png

    I had wanted a true 1" board, as anything bigger was overkill - this is a happy medium between 1" and 1.5", so I'm good.

    As for the heating system - I'll start looking closer into mini splits, were you suggesting mini for the upper floor, and radiant below, or for all?

  4. #19
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    Personally, I'd do mini split for everything, but it really depends upon your local climate conditions. As I noted, the better units these days work fine down to about -5ºF but if you expect a LOT of that kind of weather, like anything, being right at the limit isn't the best idea. In-floor radiant is certainly nice on the feet but it's a heating source that likes to be turned on and stay on for the duration because of how it works. Overhead radiant (gas fired) is a little more flexible. But I'd still want the split because it will provide AC and dehumidification very cost effectively.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Personally, I'd do mini split for everything, but it really depends upon your local climate conditions. As I noted, the better units these days work fine down to about -5ºF but if you expect a LOT of that kind of weather, like anything, being right at the limit isn't the best idea. In-floor radiant is certainly nice on the feet but it's a heating source that likes to be turned on and stay on for the duration because of how it works. Overhead radiant (gas fired) is a little more flexible. But I'd still want the split because it will provide AC and dehumidification very cost effectively.
    Yes - you've got me thinking!

    So far I haven't put so much money into the gas boiler that I can't back off - I ran the pex lines myself in the slab (cost of pex tubing), insulated the slab but I suspect that's good regardless of heating type. I ran the gas line myself, but it was part of pulling water and electric (electric in it's own pull), so that effectively cost me just materials and time.

    I guess I need to do a Manual J, compare my electric and gas rates, and figure out what this will cost in terms of energy used.

  6. #21
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    If you already have the PEX in the slab, it's probably worth using for heat in the coldest months, supplemented with the mini split for heat/AC/dehumidification. After all, you already made the investment in the slab plus gas supply and hydronic radiant heat using a "tankless" water heating system can be pretty reasonable cost. The heat pump (mini split) takes care of things when the hydronic radiant isn't as practical to use, such as when there's a lot of temperature swing and leaving it on full time, as must be done for best efficiency, isn't the best choice.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    If you already have the PEX in the slab, it's probably worth using for heat in the coldest months, supplemented with the mini split for heat/AC/dehumidification. After all, you already made the investment in the slab plus gas supply and hydronic radiant heat using a "tankless" water heating system can be pretty reasonable cost. The heat pump (mini split) takes care of things when the hydronic radiant isn't as practical to use, such as when there's a lot of temperature swing and leaving it on full time, as must be done for best efficiency, isn't the best choice.
    I like that idea. Last week I talked with a mini-split company - they recommended a 36K unit (18K up, 18K down). I'm not sure I agree necessarily - I ran my space through a manual J and it came out to a 2 ton unit, but maybe I didn't do the calcs right. I might have to have a company do the calcs for me so I can ensure I'm not sizing the system incorrectly, plus I need to have my radiant layout reviewed with today's available equipment, sigh.

    My lumber arrived, got it stacked inside (all 88 pieces). The "fun" begins. First I have to start sanding - there was some water staining from when the frame went up. Then I have to figure a lift system to get the pieces upstairs, I have an 11' ceiling

    IMG_8982.jpg
    IMG_8985.jpg
    Last edited by John Pariseau; 11-04-2021 at 9:17 PM.

  8. #23
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    Feb 2007
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    Here is a pic of my lift. Probably the best feature I put in my new shop.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    The Plane Anarchist

  9. #24
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    Mini Splits tend to come in "sizes" that are not exactly the same as traditional heat pumps. But they also don't share one characteristic...you never want a traditional heat pump/AC way oversized...with the mini split, they are a lot smarter and efficient. So while splitting the 36K BTU up and down at 18 BTU, the unit in a smaller space, if one exists, isn't going to overpower it. They are very kewel devices... Obviously, undersizing is a different story, at least relative to comfort. But 18K will be very reliable in 700-900 sq foot space if it's well insulated. If you want some heat/cooling exchange between the levels, you can put in grate(s) to do so, too.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Pariseau View Post

    My lumber arrived, got it stacked inside (all 88 pieces). The "fun" begins. First I have to start sanding - there was some water staining from when the frame went up. Then I have to figure a lift system to get the pieces upstairs, I have an 11' ceiling
    You may be able to rent a pallet lift or something similar to help move the material up to where you can maneuver it to where you need it for your build. A small scissor lift is also a possibility and would give you a work platform while setting your joists, etc.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  11. #26
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    Feb 2018
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    Understand that when advised to use baseboard upstairs coupled with your downstairs radiant that they require vastly different temps to work together. The correct product would be “panel radiators” & radiant. Typical US baseboard outputs are rated at 180* water and de-rate quickly at lower temps. Panel rads are perfectly happy in the 120* range and taht makes it much easier to couple to the lower temp radiant with a 120* supply. Runtal and Buderus and some others make panel rads. You have more flexibility in locating them too. Pricey, but worth it to complement your radiant system. You can pipe the hi and low temp system, but you better have your fastball if going it alone. If you do go with a boiler don’t use a tankless water heater. Takagi is the only company who allow their tankless to be used for space heating and there are a lot of them out there, but they are not a true boiler. You want a wall hung condensing “boiler.” The difference will be in the lay-out and controls and system performance. The boiler will have an Outdoor reset program built in and likely have the primary circulator in the unit. yoou want to pipe this Primary-secondary. If you are going at this yourself I would suggest picking up a copy of Dan Holohan’s “Primary Secondary Piping.” Dan writes so a layman can understand the topic. Not an easy thing to do in my experience. By the time you do the radiant upstairs with associated piping and controls you will have the money into what a mini-split would cost. I’d do the MS. They are excellent

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    194
    While I don't like the idea of extra bits installed outside the barn, a hole through the walls for the lines and electric, air handlers stuck on the wall... the idea of immediate heat this season is tempting, and going forward, while I'm not a big fan of AC, on the hottest days of the summer I could certainly use a bit of cooling. Most of the summer it's decent inside.

    I ran 100A from the house, so might as well use it

  13. #28
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    Jan 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Frederick View Post
    Understand that when advised to use baseboard upstairs coupled with your downstairs radiant that they require vastly different temps to work together. The correct product would be “panel radiators” & radiant. Typical US baseboard outputs are rated at 180* water and de-rate quickly at lower temps. Panel rads are perfectly happy in the 120* range and taht makes it much easier to couple to the lower temp radiant with a 120* supply. Runtal and Buderus and some others make panel rads. You have more flexibility in locating them too. Pricey, but worth it to complement your radiant system. You can pipe the hi and low temp system, but you better have your fastball if going it alone. If you do go with a boiler don’t use a tankless water heater. Takagi is the only company who allow their tankless to be used for space heating and there are a lot of them out there, but they are not a true boiler. You want a wall hung condensing “boiler.” The difference will be in the lay-out and controls and system performance. The boiler will have an Outdoor reset program built in and likely have the primary circulator in the unit. yoou want to pipe this Primary-secondary. If you are going at this yourself I would suggest picking up a copy of Dan Holohan’s “Primary Secondary Piping.” Dan writes so a layman can understand the topic. Not an easy thing to do in my experience. By the time you do the radiant upstairs with associated piping and controls you will have the money into what a mini-split would cost. I’d do the MS. They are excellent
    Thanks! This all meshes with what the radiant company came up with.

    Also - I put some money into the radiant setup - true - but frankly - the majority of it was materials. 150' of pipe, risers, pex tubing - I supplied the labor (with some help from a plumber friend who I paid, to do the final gas line hookup). I don't even consider the gas line pull a cost as my electric was done (different pull) at the same time and the cost was so low I still wonder how I got the directional boring done so cheaply. Don't get me wrong - maybe in a few years I'll put in a condensing boiler, but for now, anyways, I can afford and do most of the m-s work myself.

  14. #29
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    There's no harm in starting out with the split system since as you note, it also provides AC (and dehumidification) which can make for a more comfortable working environment. And that's at a pretty low energy usage, too. If you determine that the in-floor radiant is worth completing after trying the split system, you have the "hard part" in place already. I see this as win-win and it appear you do to based on your response to Jack in the previous post.

    As an aside, I'm REALLY missing not having a mini split in my temporary shop right now. It's downright chilly out there. Only the garage door is insulated (not the walls) and there's a lot of air infiltration which is always a challenge with this kind of setup. So when you're up and running, you can be sure I'll be sitting here very jealous!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    There's no harm in starting out with the split system since as you note, it also provides AC (and dehumidification) which can make for a more comfortable working environment. And that's at a pretty low energy usage, too. If you determine that the in-floor radiant is worth completing after trying the split system, you have the "hard part" in place already. I see this as win-win and it appear you do to based on your response to Jack in the previous post.

    As an aside, I'm REALLY missing not having a mini split in my temporary shop right now. It's downright chilly out there. Only the garage door is insulated (not the walls) and there's a lot of air infiltration which is always a challenge with this kind of setup. So when you're up and running, you can be sure I'll be sitting here very jealous!
    Sorry to hear! We'll see how long this takes. It took me 3 months to put in 16"x110' of foundation stone veneer, and just going by my normal pace I'd be surprised if I put one in this year.

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