good level

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Could you explain how an Empire level, that actually measures level, is not as good as a high-end level that also claims to? For example, if you have a level that measures level, and you flip it around and it measures the exact same level, how is that not good enough, at least for construction and installation purposes (which is most of what all of this is for.)

Doug, a great question. It deserves an answer.
Firstly, when I bought levels, I went to proper builders yards. They deal, from necessity, with a more demanding professional, so Stabila was a normal stocked item.
Secondly, builders yards don't want either returns of poorer quality tools because they have a rep. to maintain,and if they loose a house or tract because of complaints about out of level units, it hurts.
Thirdly, as a trades person and later as a contractor, I couldn't afford to have problem with plumb and level. I certainly didn't want to have my people finishing work at day's end, standing back and saying "OH SH**!!!"
My pal, (a superior, in my opinion) would use my Stabilas, but himself used a master reference level.
Neither of us could spare the time to swap our levels end for end to check the bubble, then perhaps make adjustments to the work because a less quality level went out a few degrees.
If it's a hobby, it's one thing. If you are getting paid for skill and time, it's anther.

[Doug Dawson]

Doug, a great question. It deserves an answer.
Firstly, when I bought levels, I went to proper builders yards. They deal, from necessity, with a more demanding professional, so Stabila was a normal stocked item.
Secondly, builders yards don't want either returns of poorer quality tools because they have a rep. to maintain,and if they loose a house or tract because of complaints about out of level units, it hurts.
Thirdly, as a trades person and later as a contractor, I couldn't afford to have problem with plumb and level. I certainly didn't want to have my people finishing work at day's end, standing back and saying "OH SH**!!!"
My pal, (a superior, in my opinion) would use my Stabilas, but himself used a master reference level.
Neither of us could spare the time to swap our levels end for end to check the bubble, then perhaps make adjustments to the work because a less quality level went out a few degrees.
If it's a hobby, it's one thing. If you are getting paid for skill and time, it's anther.

But what if you know that it’s accurately level? No constant checking required, because you already _know_ that. I’m not talking about levels that are physically abused on the job site, yeah you should recheck it if some idiot used it as a pry bar, but I can think of no pay grade of level where that would not be a problem.

A level is a level, BTW, and should be used for that purpose.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I am plenty satisfied with Starrett aluminium levels. I have their versions at 1200mm, 600mm and 450mm. Precise for carpentry and inexpensive. Recommended.

[Brian Holcombe]

But what if you know that it’s accurately level? No constant checking required, because you already _know_ that. I’m not talking about levels that are physically abused on the job site, yeah you should recheck it if some idiot used it as a pry bar, but I can think of no pay grade of level where that would not be a problem.

A level is a level, BTW, and should be used for that purpose.

I have an empire level, it was supposedly cut flat on both sides but after time it has developed a twist in it or I simply did not notice the twist it had. I plan to replace it with a Stabila level. In my opinion a good level should be a lifetime tool, not something I'm replacing after 10 years.

Aside from that, I tend to go for quality simply for the sake of quality whenever possible and affordable. No reason to go to the stratosphere for every tool but I've definitely found some companies I can almost always rely on.

[Jon Endres]

I have a 78" and 32" Stabila that have been treated with great care for 20 years. They are quite accurate. I had a Johnson laminated mahogany level that was my favorite, somewhere along the line it grew legs and disappeared. Still looking for it. If I wanted a decent mid-grade level I would look at the Empires and Milwaukee levels. I also have old PLS5 and Stanley Fatmax laser levels that still work great for larger projects.

[Dave Sabo]

Could you explain how an Empire level, that actually measures level, is not as good as a high-end level that also claims to? For example, if you have a level that measures level, and you flip it around and it measures the exact same level, how is that not good enough, at least for construction and installation purposes (which is most of what all of this is for.)

It's not as good in the same way craftsman or husky tools aren't as good as your Wright, Knipex and Snapy ones. They all wrench, or grip or whatever they're designed to do. Same as a Fein or ShopVac or Nilfisk isn't as good as your Festool CT. They all roll, suck and turn on when you use your connected power tool.

[Mel Fulks]

Dave, I disagree. All of the listed products work and then wear out. A craftsman can’t wear out a level...only a helper can do that.

[Derek Meyer]

I bought a Dewalt laser level a few months ago to help hang some long shelves. It works fantastic for that. I splurged and bought the green three-beam unit that uses the 12V batteries, as I heard that the ones that use AA batteries go through them quickly, and I plan on using the unit outdoors for some projects in the future. I got the level, tripod, battery and charger for $500. I already have two other 12V tools so I can share batteries between them.

For regular levels, I have 1', 2', 4' and 8' Stabila levels, and a 2' red aluminum level (maybe a Stanley). The red level is the one I let my wife use because I'm not so worried about her dropping it. I'm very careful with the big 8' level, as that cost nearly $300. I definitely consider that a lifetime tool.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have a 78" and 32" Stabila that have been treated with great care for 20 years. They are quite accurate. I had a Johnson laminated mahogany level that was my favorite, somewhere along the line it grew legs and disappeared. Still looking for it. If I wanted a decent mid-grade level I would look at the Empires and Milwaukee levels. I also have old PLS5 and Stanley Fatmax laser levels that still work great for larger projects.

That new Milwaukee that I mentioned above is not mid grade, it's as good as my Stabilas. Costs as much too.

[Dave Sabo]

Dave, I disagree. All of the listed products work and then wear out. A craftsman can’t wear out a level...only a helper can do that.

What exactly are you disagreeing with , and what’s your point.

It’s fairly obvious tools wear out at some point. Whether one tool wears out quicker than another may - or may not contribute to it being “better” (or gooder) ��than another.

And clearly you haven’t spent any time around a mason. They wear levels out all the time.


Steve - the new redstick levels were designed from the ground up to be better than Stabila. Whether they are or not is a matter of subjectivity - and kinda the undercurrent of this thread.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve - the new redstick levels were designed from the ground up to be better than Stabila. Whether they are or not is a matter of subjectivity - and kinda the undercurrent of this thread.

Indeed, who knew levels were this debatable! I'll admit that when I bought a Redstick 4' because someone borrowed my old trusty Stabila and I needed one, I fully intended to give them the Redstick so they'd quit borrowing. I used it a couple times, now keep both in the pickup. Find myself grabbing the red one more than the yellow one now. I just like the vials better.

[Mel Fulks]

And clearly you haven’t spent any time around a mason. They wear levels out all the time. Dave Sabo
Just saw your question. The masons might wear out the levels ,but I’ve never seen one get replaced. I posted about that early in this
thread. One guy with an old beat up level checks his swimming pool with an old expensive level to determine which end needs more water.

[Phillip Mitchell]

What a thread about such a simple instrument! I love and have come to really put a lot of trust in my Stabila levels when I need spirit levels. I have a torpedo, 16”, 32”, 48” and 72” and could stand to have a 24” and 96” as well occasionally. If you use them often and depend on your levels to make your living and help build your reputation I think it’s a buy once, cry once situation and I’d expect Stabila levels to last upwards of 20-30 years in the field as long as they aren’t grossly abused. Stabila also has a good warranty in place, though I’m not sure how far that extends to actual abuse. Never loan your Stabila to a mason, though...

I also really appreciate and rely on a good laser. I’ve had a few Bosch 5 point lasers; my latest one that’s about 6 years old, used often in the field and not exactly babied finally stopped working reliably recently and I want to replace it with a high quality, green laser line level that can do plumb, level as well as set to off level angles for stair work. I’ve heard great things about PLS.

[Tom M King]

I bought most of my levels before I had ever seen a Stabila. I can't remember breaking one, and if my memory serves correctly, I'm still using every one that I bought, except for the brass guarded Masons ones, which do get to the place that they are no fun to continue to use. I've managed to build stuff for decades, with no hinderance from inferior levels. I like to check them in the store, to see if I like them.

I also have several lasers for different things. I just have always wished that the lines weren't so wide.

If I really want something level, I use my builders level, that makes 1/16th inch divisions on a ruler look Huge at 50 feet, or better, and a helper with a sharp pencil.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I also have several lasers for different things. I just have always wished that the lines weren't so wide.

If I really want something level, I use my builders level, that makes 1/16th inch divisions on a ruler look Huge at 50 feet, or better, and a helper with a sharp pencil.

Tom you've probably tried a builder laser, the type with the receiver? Just like a transit or builders level, but use it in reverse. Love being able to see how far off I am by just reading the measurement, mine reads in 1/16ths, and it is that accurate to I think 2500ft. No need to see the line. Point is, if we're doing something super fine, that receiver somehow magically finds the center of the line, repeatably. I know the tech works on rotary lasers, but it also works on some prism units which serves as a way to narrow that line.