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Thread: Lake Erie and Anchora (AYS) leg vise retrofit.

  1. #1
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    Lake Erie and Anchora (AYS) leg vise retrofit.

    Finally took it on today. I have had four days off since Feb 22 and my next day off is Mar 27, but I just couldn't wait any longer. Not done, but I have a working vise again if I need to sharpen a saw before the install is finished.

    First, both companies, Lake Erie Tools Works and Anchora Yacht Services, have both been top notch to deal with for me. I had order verification emails from both within 24 hours, and both shipped product in the window they said they would ship.

    Besides the install instructions from both vendors, (excellent documents), for my retro fit I leaned heavily on two other sources. There is a youtube guy, Jay Bates, has a video up 22:10, just search youtube for "Jay Bates hickory" and look for the one 22:10 duration at the top of your results. I have watched that one at least three times. The other is Derek Cohen's website in the wood shop dot com I think. Besides the chain install article, in the section of his work bench build is a leg vise retrofit that covers three different entries. I probably owe Derek several beers for using so much of his server time. EDIT: Also Chris Schwarz _Anarchist Work Bench_ has an excellent write-up I referred to often.

    I have already lost count of how many times I have rolled my bench around on the floor tonight. I knew a retrofit was going to be a pain in the neck, tonight was the first time I was glad my bench doesn't weigh anymore than it does. If there is any way around it, don't do a retrofit. Install your leg vise to the vise leg before you assemble your bench. This sucks.

    Having said all that, my plan is to just hit the highlights and not repeat or belabor the good info already out there in the sources above.

    First up is wax. Just about everybody slathers on some floor wax as they do final assembly of wooden vise screw to wooden vise nut. No buffing. I don't like it. Wax collects dirt and dirt is hard on screw threads. Buffed wax is easy to keep dusted. I used salad bowl wax on my hub and tommy bar, floor wax on the threads. For the nut, by the time I had floor wax down into all the threads I had enough wax on my glove after clean up to do the whole nut with floor wax. The pic is my application and buffing setup for the screw, like flossing teeth. There is a bit of play between the screw and nut, so I just sort of leaned my fat belly up against the hub the lock it in place, flossed all the gaps I could reach, turn the hub 90 degrees, repeat. All the floor waxes I could find have petroleum distillates in them, so for application I was flossing hard enough to get the wax to liquify, then let it set until it stopped smelling, then at least an over night in the room with the wood stove, then buff. 3 coats applied and buffed, I was well into diminishing returns with the third coat.

    The second pic is how far I got tonight, about four hours of shop time. I have the hole for the screw through both chop and leg, hole for the chain through chop and leg, mortise for the nut cut, nut installed, chop cut to length at the floor...and that's it. Chop is still 1/2 inch proud of the bench top.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Scott Winners; 03-21-2021 at 4:27 AM.

  2. #2
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    One of the tasks I have been dreading is cutting a mortise for the nut on the back of the vise leg after then bench is assembled. This would be cake with a bare leg.

    In the one pic I have the chop clamped to the vise leg with the screw and nut for the first time ever, made knife marks for my mortise. Then flipped the bench 180 degrees, pencilled in my knife marks, and was only able to make three full width cuts with my circular saw. Marking gauge, more pencil marks, hand saw with non dominant hand from inside the bench legs, blah, blah, blah. Don't be like me. Be smart. Install your leg vise while your bench is in pieces. Large Veritas router plane was able to reach about a quarter of the mortise floor at a time.

    I did cut my nut mortise only one half inch deep, same as the shoulder on the side stretcher. I am going to have between 9 and 9.5 inches of open working depth when I am done, major upgrade for me. I could cut a deeper mortise, position the nut closer to the face of the vise leg. Might in the future, but I haven't thought of anything wider than 8 inches that needs to go in the vise instead of meeting Mr. Holdfast and his friend Mrs. Doe Foot on the benchtop. Or their cousin Mr. Planing Stop.

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  3. #3
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    Once I had the nut mortise pared wide enough that I could reasonbaly mallet the wooden nut home I just assembled it with the Tommy bar too and pulled the nut home with the screw. It is the very end of dry season here, ground snow isn't rotting yet, but hardpack snow on pavement is starting to soften.

    I did trade emails with Lake Erie and let them know Fairbanks, AK is one of "the places" with humidity swings (wikipedia/ Fairbanks / climate). The nut and screw I got from them are fabulous. Just beautiful straight grained maple like I can't find in the store. I will ask them (email) if friction fit at the end of dry season is suitable, for now I am using no fasteners and no glue to hold the nut in the leg.

    Next up will be to route the chain through the side stretcher to help locate the parallel guide...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #4
    Scott
    Good looking work; stout construction/design.

  5. #5
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    Nice progress, Scott. Should serve you well. Look forward to seeing the finished vise (as I’m sure you are as well!).

  6. #6
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    Before you assemble the vise you should carve rope into the two front corners of the vise. It's much easier now than after you assemble the vise!
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  7. #7
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    Besides the primary problem of this being a retrofit, when I built the bench I new I wanted a leg vise, but I didn't know which one. I raised up the side stretcher to clear a knot leaving plenty of room for the vise screw above and parallel guide below, and then learned of the chain leg vise kit some months later.

    I got to here today. The lower sprocket position is to be decided, but I threaded up the chain through the leg, over the upper sprocket, through the side stretcher, under the lower sprocket and zipped it back and forth a few times. Runs real nice.

    Rabbit hole coming up next.

    20210321_182607[1].jpg

  8. #8
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    In the planning/ procrastination phase, I had emailed Jim Ritter to ask if I could install the upper sprocket to the top sufrace of my side stretcher instead of the back face of the vise leg.

    He emailed back something like "I am not sure, might not be a good idea, send me some pictures." Roughly.

    So here are a couple pictures. As built, you can see the top surface (4 inch) of my 4x6 side stretcher and why I didn't bother wasting any more of Jim's time with that problem.

    If I had installed the side stretcher as a 6x4 instead of a 4x6 (could do) I would have a enough surface to mount the upper sprocket on top of the side stretcher, but I would have also picked up enough vertical space to fit the upper sprocket on the back of the vise leg where it belongs.

    I _think_ it is better to mount both sprockets to the same piece of wood unless your bench is in a shop with museum grade climate control maybe.

    So question one for Jim Ritter: Mounting the two sprockets on different pieces of wood is how bad of an idea overall?

    Question two, how does this fool thing work really? My best guess is the chain leg kit is sort of like a weight distribution hitch for heavy trailers, but I can't explain why.

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  9. #9
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    Final conundrum for me is locating the parallel guide. I am clamping up and drilling tomorrow, Lord willing.

    The pencil line is as high as I can go with the lower sprocket, lower (greater distance between sprockets) is better. My chop is Doug Fir, so I need some relish on it to do a wedge tapered through mortise in my QSWO parallel guide. And I want to keep the butterflies in the chop, it will be 3-4 years to finish seasoning. Looks like I am about to find out if chopping away a bunch of front stretcher tenon is bad. I wonder how narrow a 5/8 thick parallel guide I can use.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Winners View Post

    I probably owe Derek several beers for using so much of his server time.......


    In the planning/ procrastination phase, I had emailed Jim Ritter to ask if I could install the upper sprocket to the top sufrace of my side stretcher instead of the back face of the vise leg.

    He emailed back something like "I am not sure, might not be a good idea, send me some pictures." Roughly.

    So here are a couple pictures. As built, you can see the top surface (4 inch) of my 4x6 side stretcher and why I didn't bother wasting any more of Jim's time with that problem.

    If I had installed the side stretcher as a 6x4 instead of a 4x6 (could do) I would have a enough surface to mount the upper sprocket on top of the side stretcher, but I would have also picked up enough vertical space to fit the upper sprocket on the back of the vise leg where it belongs.

    I _think_ it is better to mount both sprockets to the same piece of wood unless your bench is in a shop with museum grade climate control maybe.

    So question one for Jim Ritter: Mounting the two sprockets on different pieces of wood is how bad of an idea overall?

    Question two, how does this fool thing work really? My best guess is the chain leg kit is sort of like a weight distribution hitch for heavy trailers, but I can't explain why.

    20210321_142811[1].jpg20210321_142837[1].jpg

    Scott, about those beers ...


    Now, regarding mounting the sprockets and parallel guide .... just copy what I did. Remember, mine has been going strong for 9 years now!

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #11
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    Hi Scott, not sure why those two options exist on a bench that is built but the good news is the upper sprocket is the least demanding in terms of installation.all of the forces on the sprocket are diagonally down into the leg, bisecting the angle made by the chain. If installing a piece of wood to hold the one half of the bracket, why not make that piece of wood a bit larger and use it instead of the bracket? Drill the axle hole square and the right height to match the hole in the metal part and use a longer 1/4” bolt. I did something similar on my bench. I actually used the stretcher to support the one side of the lower sprocket, and the parallel beam runs along the stretcher.
    The lower sprocket needs to be well secured as those forces are diagonally away from the leg bisecting the angle made by the chain.
    Does that help?
    Jim
    Ancora Yacht Service

  12. #12
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    To answer how does this work. I’m not sure how a weight distribution system works for a heavy trailer but this is how this works.
    as something is clamped in the jaws the bottom of the parallel guide wants to go into the bench because what is clamped is exerting force at the top of the jaw. The pin in the parallel beam is but one way to counteract that force. Since the chain is attached to the jaw near the screw (the closer the better) it doesn’t move, as it travels over the sprockets the one that does the most work is the lower one it ends at the end of the beam restricting its movement inward. Having a chain the right length is key. As Jeremy on YouTube said looking straight at the camera “if you can’t make it perfect, make it adjustable”. The end of the chain on the beam has a threaded stud for that distance just right accounting for even the flex in the chop jaw if there is any.
    a parallel beam on an older drafting board works on the same principle.
    Jim
    Ancora Yacht Service

  13. #13
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    My multi-reply fu is not with me tonight.

    1. Derek, I cannot do what you did because I don't have access to Jarrah. The more I learn about that tree, the more intimidated I am. Your 1.75" thick Jarrah chop is almost but not quite as stiff as hard/ rock/ red maple at 2.75" thick. Jarrah is ~50% stiffer than hard maple AND also noticeably stronger (10-20%) than northern white oak or northern red oak in modulus of rupture. You are basically working bronze or aluminum with hand tools designed for wood. Hope you like Guiness, it is what I stock in the garage. Folks from down under generally visit Alaska in June. Doug Fir is what I can get.

    2. Open invite to all who have paid the six bucks and are going to be in Fairbanks. You may try my vise to see what the fuss is about. I can't promise you more than 15 minutes, I have a high stress day job and take a LOT of call but if you are going to be in town and are curious, pay the six dollars, send me a message and we will work something out. You might need an uber if I am on call. If you have sold me a tool and shipped to Alaska I will move heaven and earth to provide transport and dinner and beer, every seller I have dealt with in the for sale section has been top notch.

    3. Progress update:

    To line up the chop and leg for cutting the parallel guide mortise I need to have the holes for the screw and chain in perfect alignment. This is another area of the install I have been dreading. I was hoping to use a dowel to prove the 5/8 chain holes were in alignment, but I remembered the button for the chain hole goes under the garter. So I threw the haggis on the fire.

    I needed the two tools pictured to install the button at one end of the chain. You might could pop that clip open with a flat screwdriver, but I had the E-ring pliers and used the pictured jaw set. I ended up laying on the floor a few times to be sure the screw was centered in the hole before I marked through the garter onto the chop for the garter screws.

    Yes I got the antiqued/ weathered brass garter. Besides being my last day jogging for life, my last day in the Navy was also my last day polishing brass. I did slather the garter with floor wax pretty good at the last minute. I also goobered up the screws real good with floor wax as they were going in, and then pulled out most of the excess wax just as there was about to not be room for a Qtip anymore, then again once the screws were home. Once that brass has a scratch on it I will get out my awl and mark it up for real. You are welcome to polish all the brass you want for as long as you want. The garter screws are not #2 phillips. I think they are #3, bigger than #2, but my correctly fitting bit was not labeled. I used a long handled bit driver for vertical pressure and a 1/4" open ended wrench to apply torque.

    My goal here is to build a vise that will last the rest of my life. I don't care if it is pretty, I don't care if it is the strongest vise ever, I just want to not fool with it again. I do hope to some day build a bigger bench and move this vise over, but that wont be a retrofit. I have some concerns about my chop, but when go time happened this was the one board in town I could find, and I went everywhere.

    Right now I have it clamped up with with the screw centered in the hole in the chop by the garter, and centered in the hole in the leg by the nut. The chain is in good alignment, it was feeding itself over the sprocket as I closed the screw. I just kept turning the tommy bar until the nut was well seated in the mortise. The chop is square to the benchtop.

    I need to drop a couple screws through the nut into the leg. If next winter is dryer than this winter I don't want that nut flopping around in its mortise, and if the nut goes out of alignment far enough to mess with the chain alignment I will have to fool with it (qv). I do not intend for those garter screws to come out until either my unborn grandchildren get to heaven or the chop needs to be replaced.

    Once it was clamped up, I did the layout for where the parallel guide needs to go. As drawn I will have 12 inches (axle to axle) vertical between my two spockets. Doing that essentially destroys the butterfly on the front/show face of the chop, but I have enough meat left on the tenon of the front stretcher to not make my blood boil. And I can put in another butterfly no problem.

    I could lower the lower sprocket another 1.25" without interfering with the butterfly on the inside of the chop, finish destroying the butterfly on the show face of the chop, and start getting nervous about shear resistance parallel to the grain in Doug Fir.

    It looks like Derek did an open mortise and tenon, a bridle joint, to attach his parallel guide to his chop. I respect that Jarrah is hard to photograph. I simply do not trust that joint in this application with Doug Fir. DF is a fabulous softwood. DF is incredibly strong for its weight, excellent modulus of elasticity. Compared to other softwoods it really is the King of the West (North America) but once you get into dovetails and bridle joints it really is a softwood and just doesn't have the ultimate strength of oak or maple. Or Jarrah.

    On the one hand I want the spread between the two sprockets as wide as possible, but I also want as much relish as I can get in the DF chop between the through mortise for the parallel guide and the floor end of the chop. Currently my blank for the parallel guide is QSWO at 5/8 thick by plenty plenty long and 3.5 inches width.

    Advice requested:

    @ Jim Ritter, if I spread the sprocket axles from 12" vertical (minimum in the install guide) to 13.25" vertical (max I can possibly do), what I am gaining?

    @ everybody, how wide does my parallel guide have to be? My QSWO stick was ripped and thicknessed about a month ago and has stayed straight in my shop. I am looking for all the vertical freedom I can get, but I can stay at 3.5" width if that will probably last more or less forever. If 3.0" will last forever I will be glad to have that half inch.

    Thanks, pictures.

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  14. #14
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    The further away the lower sprocket can be the better. The adjustment for parallelism is easier, the action is smoother and the force on the lower sprocket trying to be torn off the leg is less. I can’t remember exactly but can look it up later, my vise can generate 1200 to 1600 PSI if the lower sprocket is equidistant from the screw that same force is exerted on that sprocket and bracket system. My beam is 3x the distance to the top of the jaws so it only has to deal with about 400#. And realizing you are using a short distance and have a softwood bench leg if you have longer screws to mount the brackets I would use them, otherwise keep an eye them in use to see if they loosen up over time.
    Jim
    Ancora Yacht Service

  15. #15
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    As marked up with the sprocket axles 12 inches apart I have 9.5 inches veretical from the bench top to the screw center, 16 vertical inches from the screw center to the current axle of the low sprocket, and when I get the floor wedge system finished I should have about 23 vertical inches from the screw center to the top of the wedge. I fully expect the chain alone to meet 90-99% of my lifetime needs, but I am going to go ahead with the floor wedge now so when I do need it all I have to do is track down the wedge I made in 2021.

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