Two WB finishing questions

[Bennett Ostroff]

I thought I'd piggyback on the recent WB/OB finish thread because I'm gradually making the transition to water-based finishes myself.

The first question is about raised grain. When applying a WB topcoat directly to raw wood, and then lightly sanding the raised grain before second coat, I can't seem to get a smooth surface on subsequent coats. Photos attached of an example of white oak with 3 coats of GF HP satin. I've tried sanding the first coat more aggressively but this just seems to promote grain raising on second coat. Even when the raised grain is buried under additional coats with light sanding in between coats, I can still see and feel the raised bumpy grain under the topcoats, as seen in the pics. This has happened with multiple species including white oak, walnut, and sycamore. This is for times when I'm not interested in using a shellac seal coat. Pre-raising/sanding doesn't seem to help either. Any suggestions? If this is just a reality of WB finishes, I can live with that.

Second question is about toning. I know toners are typically sprayed, but has anyone had luck brushing on a tinted WB topcoat like High Performance or Enduro Var? I'm wondering if I will be able to get consistent color. Any suggestions on TransTint dyes to get a WB closest to oil based look? I've seen suggestions of amber, honey amber, and dark vintage maple.

Thanks!

[Robert Engel]

I'm not so sure that's grain raising looks like some reaction to me.

You might consider grain filling.

[Prashun Patel]

I agree that does not look like raised grain. In fact, most of the surface looks quite nice. Sometimes if you apply layers of finish too quickly, you can get trapped solvent that then wants to come out. This might happen on a deep pored wood like oak.

Could the surface have been contaminated before finishing?

For toners, the issue you may find with a wiped or brushed toner is that the color gets moved around and possibly streaky. The color is not completely locked in by the finish you mix it with, and are really sitting on top of the sealed surface; it's not bonded, and you're basically using solvent and hoping it stays put. This is not to say it won't work. But YMMV especially with higher contrast colors.

If you are going to be converting to WB finishes and wish to tone or dye, a spraying set up - even the low cost HVLPS ones from HF or Earlex are very wise investments. The problem is of course, that's a slippery slope.... says the guy on his 3rd upgrade...

[Bennett Ostroff]

Interesting. I'm 99% sure it's raised grain. That was freshly sanded (180g) white oak with High Performance straight on it with plenty of dry time between coats. I can't imagine what else it could be. It doesn't happen when top coating a shellac-sealed surface. I do have the HP thinned about 7% with GF extender but I've gotten it with un-thinned as well.

[John TenEyck]

I once had a huge problem with raised grain on white oak. I finally resolved it by first sanding to 325 grit, finishing with a fresh piece of sandpaper to make sure I was cutting the fibers and not burnishing them. That minimized the grain raising when I subsequently dyed the piece. So, try sanding to finer grit, say, at least two grits finer than what you last used, and make sure the last sandpaper you use is brand new.

I've applied shellac toners by hand, before I had spray equipment. And that's a LOT harder than doing it with WB products which, once dry, won't re dissolve like shellac will. This was maple and maple plywood, Transtint dye mix in shellac, done with a brush.

[Bennett Ostroff]

Thanks John, I will give that a try!

I once had a huge problem with raised grain on white oak. I finally resolved it by first sanding to 325 grit, finishing with a fresh piece of sandpaper to make sure I was cutting the fibers and not burnishing them. That minimized the grain raising when I subsequently dyed the piece. So, try sanding to finer grit, say, at least two grits finer than what you last used, and make sure the last sandpaper you use is brand new.

I've applied shellac toners by hand, before I had spray equipment. And that's a LOT harder than doing it with WB products which, once dry, won't re dissolve like shellac will. This was maple and maple plywood, Transtint dye mix in shellac, done with a brush.

[Ron Citerone]

What I about to say may not have many woodworkers here that agree, but I have given up on sanding any finish until I have 3 coats on, then sand lightly and tack cloth before 4th and any subsequent coats. I usually do 5.

[Jim Becker]

I'm a bit with Ron here...I might take a few swipes with 320 or 400 after the first coat to gently knock down any "nubbies", but I don't like to actually sand the finish. If I do, it's because I have a need to do some serious leveling because of orange peel (which would be my fault to correct to begin with). Otherwise, I like to just build the finish, coat by coat. That's typically three to five coats, depending on the project, but on guitar bodies I tend to do more because I do level and the do the whole micro-mesh regimen before buffing.

The bottom line...let the finish do the work and knocking down fuzz is easier if there's a little more finish encapsulating it. Often, a white synthetic pad will do the job rather than using abrasive paper if conditions are right.

[John Adank]

I’m working with white ash right now and using GF HP in Semi gloss. Ash is a similar open grain wood. I would sand to 180 or 220 max for final sanding. You could also use grain filler to fill the pores of the grain but I would sand down to the bare wood and start over. Keep a wet edge with the brush and make long one way strokes. It should be easy to do with these short boards. The GF is great stuff but water borne can be PITA because of drips and brush marks.

[John Adank]

One more thing to try would be to thin the GF down 5% with distilled water. Take some finish and pour a little in a separate container and add a little distilled water and mix it up. I just tried this on my ash because it was leaving too many brush strokes around the second and third coats. It’s looking much better and flows out well. The GF waterborne tends to sit on the service a little more on the open grained woods rather then penetrate into the pores like an oil based finish. I think I sanded mine off about 6 times before I tried the thinning of the finish. So far, it looks better and not as thick looking.