Window & door screen build: Domino, pocket screws, or M &T joints?

[Warren Lake]

haunch gives a bit more glue surface, fills the panel slot that runs right through, also helps resist any twisting. Example the "shaker called doors" were made with a mortise and tennon and the panel slot that ran to the end of the styles was filled in by the haunch on the tennon.

[John TenEyck]

It's easy enough to cut a stub tenon on the end of a rail AND use loose tenons.




Or you can cut a dado in the end of the rail and have it fit over a stub tenon on the edge of the stile. Either way accomplishes the same thing.




You can even draw bore and pin loose tenons if you think it offers an advantage.



There are lots of ways to use modern methods and materials without sacrificing practical longevity.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

If you’re going to go through that, why not just make square edged tenons? Time savings is gone.

Practically speaking draw-bore pins are great where clamps are impractical.

[John TenEyck]

If you’re going to go through that, why not just make square edged tenons? Time savings is gone.

Practically speaking draw-bore pins are great where clamps are impractical.

Because then I'd have to make square ended mortises. A slot mortiser (or Domino) and loose tenons take a lot less time, both cutting and fitting, with less chance for error, than cutting integral haunched tenons and matching square ended mortises. Said another way, I guess I'm just not good enough to work to perfect fit tolerances. Fortunately, there is no need. I cut those loose tenons by the yard. In the time it takes to cut and fit one integral tenon I've cut enough loose tenons for several doors. And because using a slot mortiser, or router, produces mortises of consistent width the loose tenons fit w/o need for individual fitting. The only thing about loose tenons that takes longer is having to glue both ends of the tenon. I'm OK with that.

I'm not saying what I do is better, only that it's faster and easier for me and that I see no downside from a practical longevity standpoint.

John

[Mel Fulks]

I don’t see thru-tenons as unsightly. Still remember as a kid being impressed by them at G. Washington’s boy-hood Ferry Farm home.
The guides always point them out ! Hope I never live anywhere that weather can hurt a thru-tenon ! Tip: If you don’t have time to paint
the whole door ....at least paint that end grain !!

[Mel Fulks]

One thing we haven’t yet mentioned are blind wedged tenons. Seen them in books and heard old timers say they had used them. I’ve always
meant to try it , might make an open sided sample to get a sense of taper size.

[Malcolm McLeod]

One thing we haven’t yet mentioned are blind wedged tenons. Seen them in books and heard old timers say they had used them. I’ve always
meant to try it , might make an open sided sample to get a sense of taper size.

I used this (...thinking we're talking the same thing...?) on a chest-on-stand, and references I found called it a "fox-tail tenon". One thing for sure, once you start assembly, it WILL NOT allow a 2nd attempt!

[Mel Fulks]

Malcolm, were you happy with the result ?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Malcolm, were you happy with the result ?

Very.

I cut a typical tenon on a leg, then a mortice in the bottom of a rail - - for the 'stand' of said chest-on-stand - - with the stand being Japanese-inspired 'gate' style. Result was the ends of the rails were a perfect place to pick up the entire assembly, legs hang from rails, chest hangs on legs, and so I was worried about the leg's tenon being loaded in pure vertical tension.

At the top of the tenon, I cut 2 tapered relief cuts, located ~1/4" in from the edge ('outside' of the tenon has to flex ). The base of the cut got a drilled stress relief hole (~1/8" IIRC). Then made 1/8" thick wedges to fit these cuts.

A little trig gave me the angle of the wedge, so cut a guide block for a chisel and undercut the bottom of each side of the rail's mortice for both tenons/legs.

Start the 4 wedges (barely), apply glue to all surfaces, align, and drive it home. Once! (Complicated by the lower stretcher in each pair of legs that was already glued in place.)

...If this is what you're referencing? Result is bulletproof.

[Brian Holcombe]

Sounds like a nice project, Malcolm! I’ve used them on a few projects, one is outdoor and they are still tight.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks,Malcolm. Good to hear from someone who has done it . I gotta move up priority on that one.

[Jared Sankovich]

I like the domino for what it is. Its not perfect, but it works well enough. It's not a replacement for every integral M&T but it works in a variety of situations.

[Paul Schaefer]

I built a screen door for our old house because the front door was so darn big I couldn't just buy a door at the box store - I'd have to go to the original door manufacturer and my memory is that would have cost me around $150. No thanks! Used 1x4 radiata pine from HD for the stiles and 1x6 for the rails. Put it together with 5/16" dowels, and it held up great for the ten years we lived there. It was a screen door that got abused by two little kids, but it wasn't structural timbering. No need to over-engineer it.

New house has standard sized doors. I looked at the cost of lumber compared to the cost of a screen door at the box store. I couldn't buy the lumber for the cost of the door, and when you count the value of my time that could be spent on the mountain of other home projects that would be prohibitively expensive to contract out...well, the cheap box store screen doors won out. The joinery was not impressive, so I threw some angle brackets on as reinforcement. That was two years ago, and they're holding strong.

My view is, for a project like this, I wouldn't go for some theoretical 'best' joint. Use whatever is easiest, is sufficiently strong for the task at hand, and is sufficiently aesthetically pleasing to your eye. If I couldn't just buy a premade door and dress it up (structurally and aesthetically), I'd probably do dowels again or half-laps.

[Joe Calhoon]

No doubt that true mortise and tenon makes for better joinery but I think for frames Domino, loose tenon and even dowels (gasp) are acceptable in most cases. For many years we built doors with loose tenon joinery using a slot mortiser on SCM combo machine. Early on we made a line of reproduction Victorian era doors that were wedged through tenoned. That was a labor intensive operation without the right equipment. Cutting long tenons on a table saw with a dado blade and a drill press mortise attachment. The mass produced doors of the late 1800s and early 1900s were efficiently produced with chain mortisers and push pull tenoners with horizontal heads.
Looking around town at doors I have built over the last 45 years the joints are still tight on all the forms of joinery used including dowels.
Door and windows joinery is not so much strength of joint but how the joint reacts to cycles of humidity and temperature changes. IFT Rosenheim in Germany does extensive testing of window and door joints. Slot and tenon is the norm for windows in Europe and rated high except for the exposed endgrain. Dowels are also rated high with the advantage of less end grain. Lowest ratings are mechanical through bolted connections because the humidity and temperature changes cause these to loosen over time even though these are stronger than a mortise and tenon. Here is a picture of a hand cut slot and tenon from a 1650s European window. This is in a window museum of a European door and window maker.
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Accuracy with a Domino, since it is hand held is dependent on the skill of the user. In my experience the fit of the factory supplied Dominos is very good. One advantage of loose tenon is you can use a harder wood for the tenon. For example using oak tenons on a fir screen door. Loose tenon and Domino from a manufacturing standpoint is more efficient. (AKA making a profit) For me with the wide variety of custom work it would be very impractical to do true mortise and tenon on everything. Here is a example of a recent door that has very narrow cross rails. On this one hidden LVL was used to strengthen the narrow cross rails using a combination of dowels and Domino.
Good dowel construction depends on a accurate boring machine, correct fitting dowels and dowels made out of good exterior wood like Oak or Locust. Dowel construction can be very accurate for positioning of parts.
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The pined non glued window construction of the past was a good thing but would be hard to bring back now. Too many profiles- types and windows have gotten more complex.
I always do true tenons on historic work. Some joinery pictures of recent work. I believe the OP using a little care could make acceptable joinery with the tools he has.

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[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, Joe, appreciate your insights.