Window & door screen build: Domino, pocket screws, or M &T joints?

[Alex Zeller]

They're screens for a house. Not a hatch for a sub. Any one of these methods would work just fine for the windows. I would use Titebond III because they will see rain and pick the joint that I preferred. I would do a rabbit for the screen with a wood strap that fit into it (after stapling the screen). Even the door isn't going to see much force unless a kid decides to lift himself off the ground while hanging on it. There's just not going to be much weight. I would put the spring for the door near the center, not at the top, because that's where it'll be pushed / pulled. I certainly wouldn't by a Domino for this one job. Now if I just wanted one or felt like I would use it in the future then, being a tool whore, I would buy one.

[Warren Lake]

easy answer for me id just do what the old guys did. I watched them for many years and saw them do what they were taught. It worked for 1000 years before. You could do the M and T and then peg it, better offset the peg so its always under pre load. Even skip the glue and it would likely out live you though glue best to keep water and moisture out and stronger.

[Thomas Wilson]

IIRC, a FWW article on joint strength showed half laps to have higher breaking strength than traditional M&T. Why? Because the faces have larger cross section than on a M&T joint. Of course, when a half lap joint fails the two pieces come apart while with a M&T it often still stays together although structurally it's history. The point is there are several ways to make joints that are plenty strong enough for the intended application. Even the most basic outfitted shop can make serviceable joints for these doors. Seriously, a handsaw, drill and chisel are all that is needed to make several of the joints discussed.

John

I read the FWW article. Its conclusion agreed with this experience. However, my reading of trends in the test results that suggests greater crossgrain gluing surface increased the breaking strength. That seems counter intuitive. A possible explanation was that the test did not consider the effect of wood movement over time weakening the glue bond. But I agree that the tools available and the OP’s preference would determine the choice. I would not choose pocket screws or biscuits but those might be fine.

[Joe Cowan]

I recently completed a storm door with removable glass/and or screen panels. I used my domino for the joinery and all is well after one year.

[John TenEyck]

I recently completed a storm door with removable glass/and or screen panels. I used my domino for the joinery and all is well after one year.

Oh NO, how could you? It'll fail in another week for sure!

I bet it'll outlive us both.

John

[Jeff Bartley]

easy answer for me id just do what the old guys did. I watched them for many years and saw them do what they were taught. It worked for 1000 years before. You could do the M and T and then peg it, better offset the peg so its always under pre load. Even skip the glue and it would likely out live you though glue best to keep water and moisture out and stronger.

In most of the historic work that I do we never glue windows or doors though I do use hide glue on wedges in doors. On a recent screen door build I cut through mortise and tenons which were draw-bore pegged then wedged with a little hide glue on the mortise side of the wedge.

Windows and window screens are never glued. If they were they would not be repairable in the future. Many of the windows we repair are over 150 years old! My favorite wood for exterior window screens is locust; with locust pegs and paint they will last forever and a day!

[Warren Lake]

thanks John, some good history there in the work you do. Reminds me of the old guy on the six inch thick church doors learned in his apprenticeship.

Ironically there is a huge locust behind my parents home and just today had said in an email to a friend new owners will love it or not want it there. Tons of little leaf guys end up in the eves. Appraisers will take into account certain trees in how they ad or dont add value to a home. It drops branches from time to time and they are heavy and hard.

Ive never seen that wood for sale in a lumber company. Will have to decide on wood for some doors and windows there at some point.

[Alex Zeller]

I wonder if the half lap is so strong simply because it's an easy joint to glue. With a tenon too loose and the glue isn't going to hold. Too tight and you risk scraping it off while putting the joint together.

[Brian Holcombe]

Warren and Jeff, the draw-bored mortise and tenon is definitely the ideal joint for this in my opinion.

Alex, I suspect it’s mainly because the parts are thicker. Joint testing to failure only shows what is strongest in that respect, it doesn’t show what lasts best over time in normal use. As example Shoji use a double tenon, traditionally. Small double tenons are not terribly strong joints in ultimate breaking strength but they hold very well over time with traditional glues.

[Warren Lake]

the mortise and the tennon both get glue.

Chisel mortisers or chains leave some rough there as well which is not negative. Router bits and Makas smoother. Some depending on how they cut their tennons will have some rough there as well. I was shown a tennon off a 500 K machine from a big custom door maker and it looked like a beaver chewed it.

I saw a test between mortise and tennon and dowels. It wasnt realistic dimensions used compared to what a door would be. Egyptians used this stuff. I dont need to reinvent the wheel. The old guys had good teachers and Id rather have machines to do the work the way I was taught than a gizmo cause im looking for time saving lesser way. Thats all that stuff is.

For the pro shops the gizmos did nothing. Face frames were mortise and tennon and became Pocket holes. So what, the bar was just lowered and all of them went at the same new low level, how did time saving help anyone. Gizmo inventors made big and lowered the trade. The old guys had simple tools and did the best work with it, just kept doing what they were taught.

Lap joints look like kindergarten.

[Mel Fulks]

I can see the value of not gluing old doors that just need some re-hab. For new doors ,I like glue, especially since most of the time I was
not hanging the doors. Helpers and day-workers are often loading and unloading doors, and they usually pretty much drop them when
setting them down. Then someone wants the guy who skillfully made the door to repair it for free. Even if it’s just wracked ,it has to be
fixed. Custom doors are pricey. I’m retired ,but even years ago we were making fir or white pine front doors that were often over a $1000.
Glued all of them.

[John TenEyck]

Modern glues make joinery stronger and more durable over what most people would consider a practical lifespan. Doors, windows, etc. for historical buildings might fall in a different category if the objective is to repair/replace exactly as the original was crafted, but for the OP's project why one would ignore the advantages of glue escapes me. I'll bet the craftsmen making windows and doors a few hundred years ago would have taken advantage of glue for exterior work had they been available.

When you look at old methods of construction you have to wonder why they did things a certain way. For example, were doors made with through tenons because it was easier to fabricate than a housed tenon? A through tenon exposes the end to weather and that's not good. A through tenon weakens the stile and diminishes the look of the edge of the door. It also has to be perfectly fabricated to eliminate racking. One has to wonder if draw boring was developed as a way to eliminate racking in joints that had a little slop. A glued, stopped tenon eliminates all those issues.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

Draw-bores are used for many reasons, the two that stand out to me are simple. Hide glue isn’t durable against the elements and draw-bored frames are more easily repairable.

Modern glues are not easily repairable, doesn’t matter at all in our throw-away culture unless you want to keep the door open for repair. I do, in many cases do I will use draw-bores or hide glue in those cases. If it’s a less concerning I will use plain yellow glue. If the joinery is too small for draw-boring and repair is too time consuming to be efficient then I will use a modern water resistant glue.

Unless you have actually made draw-bores you may never realize how sturdy they are. I draw bore bed-frames and table bases routinely. I’ve revisited them many times and they are rock solid. A glue joint would be also, but I can’t take down a glue joint with a drift pin and a hammer in about 30 seconds.

Furthermore I see no reason to throw away foundational technologies and processes for the sake of convenience. There is Ming furniture, now 400 years old or more being held together with draw-bore pegs, there are Japanese temples older still that are held together with draw-bore pegs, many of which have survived earth quakes. Heck, there is a set of doors at the Armory in Philly that are held together with draw bore pegs, I believe those doors are 15’ tall.

Ive never built 15’ tall doors, so I’ll give a nod to those who do, and give respect to their process as being ideal for their circumstances rather than assume they had their arms tired behind their backs for lack of modern glues.

[Jim Dwight]

Domino made joints are just mortise and tenon joints. It has two mortises and an inserted tenon. That is different but had advantages. One of the toughest parts of making tenons for me is the shoulders. I bought and use a shoulder plane which helps a lot but it is still a bit of work to get them to fit tight. With an inserted tenon (domino or plunge router made) there is no shoulder to cut. Strength comparisons are won by the joint with the most long grain glued area. That doesn't make a half lap the best joint for every application, however. Domino joints often do not fare well because one or more small pre-made tenons are used and compared to a larger integral tenon. Surprise, more glue area wins. When I want more glue area, I just make a longer slot mortise and a tenon to match. It is significantly easier to cut the inserted tenon than a traditional, at least for me. I have made longer mortises several times when that worked best for my project. You just plunge repeated at about 1/2 inch intervals and you have a longer mortise. Not much different than plunging a hollow chisel into work repeatedly to get a longer mortise. Except the domino is faster and the mortise is cleaner.

I would also say that somebody who says domino joints have slop hasn't really made many, if any. The premade tenons fit so tight you have to drive them apart. Most of us thin some tenon stock down for dry fit. But if you ever have a situation with slop, you could just make your own tighter fitting tenon stock. Easily and quickly.

I also like to use the same tools, however, that I have repeatedly gotten good results with. With a good mortiser you are comfortable with AND a good way to make an integral tenon you definitely do not need a domino. But for my little shop I do not have space for a floor standing mortiser and a domino is definitely better than a benchtop unit IMHO.

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim, a nit-pick; the long grain glue surface is one aspect of ultimate strength. I cut double tenons, they have twice the glue surface of single tenons. I’ve assembled and destroyed similar sized joints, the single tenons are always stronger.

As mentioned, however. We usually are not breaking the joinery, if that happens it is usually after the glue failed.

WRT slop, not taking about across the thickness, but rather across the width. This tolerance allows parts to locate slightly out of position. I’ve taken apart a number of these joints, the fit is certainly acceptable, but frankly I can do better with classical machines and dial in the fit, with softwoods I generally like them to compress along the sides and with hardwoods I’m generally aiming for near zero tolerance but without compression.

Finally a domino joint robs the joint of the haunch, the haunch is certainly going to improve part alignment, especially over time and with wood movement.

We’re certainly splitting hairs here, but that’s the nature of a discussion that is fairly interesting.