Bad Axe Hybrid filing?

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Hi all, I am about to order my first joinery saws
a pair from Bad Axe Toolworks - the 18" Tenon and the 14" carcass (a dovetail saw will come next as soon as I can afford it)

Mark seems to be pushing his hybrid cut filing pretty hard. This goes counter to most of what I've read - that 2 saws one a dedicated rip and one a dedicated cut can do better work than a hybrid?

Was hoping for some input from the creek, I looked for past references but haven't seen anything specific on the subject.
should I go hybrid on both, or dedicated cross and rip respectively. I definitely believe that Mark knows his saws...

[Phil Gaudio]

I think it depends in part on your level of experience. The hybrid filing may be more user friendly for the sawyer who is just getting started. The first BA saw I ordered came with the hybrid filing, and I immediately sent it back and had it refiled rip. I found that the hybrid filing was not aggressive enough for my liking. If you could demo both saws side by side, I think you would immediately see the difference. If you have limited time to woodwork, and want a saw that is a little easier to handle, perhaps the hybrid is just the ticket. If you are more serious about woodworking and want the best performance from the saw, I'd go with dedicated rip/crosscut filing.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I think it depends in part on your level of experience. The hybrid filing may be more user friendly for the sawyer who is just getting started. The first BA saw I ordered came with the hybrid filing, and I immediately sent it back and had it refiled rip. I found that the hybrid filing was not aggressive enough for my liking. If you could demo both saws side by side, I think you would immediately see the difference. If you have limited time to woodwork, and want a saw that is a little easier to handle, perhaps the hybrid is just the ticket. If you are more serious about woodworking and want the best performance from the saw, I'd go with dedicated rip/crosscut filing.

its hard for me to answer this, like I said I've only sawn with big box store generic saws and my leatherman multitool (both are cross cut). I will say one thing - I am more interested in accuracy and control than I am with speed. I am doing this for fun, I won't have a lot of time to do it typically but I'm OK with slowing down a bit. I'm less OK with sloppy work (I know my work will probably be sloppy as an untrained sawyer). as for trying out the tools, I would love to, do you think an American tool show is likely to travel to Israel any time soon?

[Phil Gaudio]

its hard for me to answer this, like I said I've only sawn with big box store generic saws and my leatherman multitool (both are cross cut). I will say one thing - I am more interested in accuracy and control than I am with speed. I am doing this for fun, I won't have a lot of time to do it typically but I'm OK with slowing down a bit. I'm less OK with sloppy work (I know my work will probably be sloppy as an untrained sawyer). as for trying out the tools, I would love to, do you think an American tool show is likely to travel to Israel any time soon?

Let me address your last comment first: I suggest you plan a trip to the USA: perhaps a whirlwind tour of all the boutique tool makers across the country? Not in the cards, then let me suggest this. How about ordering one saw that you think will best suit your needs. Live with that saw for a while, and assess its strengths and weaknesses. You will then be better able to make an informed decision when purchasing your second saw. It is difficult to capture in words how a particular saw cuts: its something you have to experience for yourself. Based on what you have described, maybe the hybrid filing would be good for your first saw. Wait a while, I am sure you will be getting lots of advice on this one, although that advice may not make it any easier to make your decision

[Scott Winners]

Since you are getting two saws, I would get one filed rip, one filed crosscut , and practice on a scrap with both. Last time I looked at the Bad Axe site hard somewhere in the FAQ the hybrid grind/ file/ recipe was reccomended for folks only getting one saw for now, and then send it back to have the hybrid grind undone when you buy your second saw.

I did file one of my 26" saws with the BA hybrid parameters. It did not rip as good as my rip saws, and it did not crosscut as good as my crosscuts. However, the hybrid grind on my saw is my go to choice for resawing figured hardwood.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I have a BA 16” Tenon (rip) and a 14” BA Sash (CC). Great saws. Even if you’re inexperienced, with a bit of practice you won’t be unhappy with those filings, but I suspect you will soon regret getting a hybrid filing.

[Ron Bontz]

Take it with a grain of salt. I would go with a dedicated rip and a dedicated cross cut. When you buy a dovetail saw, at 15/ 16ppi filed rip, it will have small enough teeth to cross cut to some extent as well. Either way, the BA is a good saw.

[Warren Mickley]

I was once in a tenon sawing contest (speed and accuracy) using a provided Bad Axe saw. I won the contest and got to take the saw home. It was a 16 inch tenon saw with hybrid filing. I would not go any larger than this. The saw has much more depth of cut than a traditional saw of similar size so it is a little unwieldy. For really large tenons, we use a rip saw.

The type of filing is not an important issue. Soon enough you will need it sharpened and can have whatever filing you want. I changed mine to a rip saw when I first filed it.

A carcass saw is a large dovetail saw. Mine is 10 inches, but 11 inches is more common. We use it for cutting dovetails on material in the 7/8 thickness range.

A 14 inch saw is a small tenon saw or sash saw.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I was once in a tenon sawing contest (speed and accuracy) using a provided Bad Axe saw. I won the contest and got to take the saw home. It was a 16 inch tenon saw with hybrid filing. I would not go any larger than this. The saw has much more depth of cut than a traditional saw of similar size so it is a little unwieldy. For really large tenons, we use a rip saw.

interesting, I wanted the 18” tenon for my first build, a workbench with a 4” top (no through tenons). You think I should get the 16”?

[Warren Mickley]

Yes, I would get the 16 inch over the 18 inch. I think it fits better in a kit. Eventually you will want three or four back saws.

[Joshua Lucas]

I have my Blackburn Tools 14" Sash saw filed hybrid (10° rake and 10° fleam IIRC) and I've been pretty happy with it. It rips a bit slower and crosscuts a bit rougher than dedicated saws would, but it's still quite good at both. I'm not sure I'd want any other back saw filed hybrid though. A tenon saw should be rip and a carcass saw crosscut. A hybrid dovetail saw might have a slight advantage for cutting dovetail shoulders but probably not worth the trouble vs. a rip filing.

Everything I've read recommends a 16" tenon saw over an 18". Supposedly an 18" back saw is too unwieldy for the vast majority of tasks. For what it's worth my back saws are a 10" rip dovetail, 14" hybrid sash, and a 16" rip tenon (well, an unassembled kit for one anyway). And I'd like to add a 12" crosscut carcass saw at some point.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

interesting, I wanted the 18” tenon for my first build, a workbench with a 4” top (no through tenons). You think I should get the 16”?

Yes, I agree with Warren. As I noted above, I have the 16” BA Tenon Saw. It’s big (4” useable blade under the bar), sometimes unwieldy, and all you’ll ever need 98% of the time. I, too, use a handsaw on the rare occasions I need something bigger. In my opinion an 18” backsaw will offer little more than frustration and begin collecting dust soon after its purchase.

I have a lot of respect for Mark at BA - his saws are very good - but he is also a clever salesman. He recommends his hybrid filing, knowing full well that a lot of people will return the saws to be refiled in either a more appropriate rip or crosscut profile thereby getting extra $$ for the resharpening service. He offers a lot of appealing but unnecessary bling to each of his saws, substantially driving up the price without increasing efficiency. Both of my BA saws are the basic, least expensive models and they cut just as well as the tricked out saws costing a few hundred dollars more. And he gives each of his saws a military moniker, which I guess appeals to a certain aspect of the buying public.

Btw, I have a few very old Disston 12 - 14” backsaws as well and find myself reaching for them more than the BAs. They just feel better balanced to me. I guess you can say “often imitated, never duplicated” applies.

[Phil Gaudio]

Yes, I agree with Warren. As I noted above, I have the 16” BA Tenon Saw. It’s big (4” useable blade under the bar), sometimes unwieldy, and all you’ll ever need 98% of the time. I, too, use a handsaw on the rare occasions I need something bigger. In my opinion an 18” backsaw will offer little more than frustration and begin collecting dust soon after its purchase.

I have a lot of respect for Mark at BA - his saws are very good - but he is also a clever salesman. He recommends his hybrid filing, knowing full well that a lot of people will return the saws to be refiled in either a more appropriate rip or crosscut profile thereby getting extra $$ for the resharpening service. He offers a lot of appealing but unnecessary bling to each of his saws, substantially driving up the price without increasing efficiency. Both of my BA saws are the basic, least expensive models and they cut just as well as the tricked out saws costing a few hundred dollars more. And he gives each of his saws a military moniker, which I guess appeals to a certain aspect of the buying public.

Btw, I have a few very old Disston 12 - 14” backsaws as well and find myself reaching for them more than the BAs. They just feel better balanced to me. I guess you can say “often imitated, never duplicated” applies.

I have purchased a number of BA saws over the years, and I have had to return more than one upon receipt due to dissatisfaction with the filing. I was never charged for this service, and the re-filed saws ended up being excellent.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I have purchased a number of BA saws over the years, and I have had to return more than one upon receipt due to dissatisfaction with the filing. I was never charged for this service, and the re-filed saws ended up being excellent.

Perhaps you expressed your dissatisfaction with emphasis soon after receipt. This directly from Bad Axe website:

Bad Axe Saw Sharpening & touch-up: $15
When you're ready to have me sharpen up your Bad Axe --just ship it back to me, and for a nominal fee of $15, I will put a fresh edge on your teeth, and will gladly retension the back if required.

You also pay for shipping each way, which isn’t cheap. Don’t get me wrong, I like both my BA saws and applaud Mark for producing excellent saws, but I disagree with the hype about his hybrid filing.

[Bob Betker]

I've purchased a number of saws over the years from Mark and all except one have been filed either rip or crosscut. The one filed hybrid happens to be the one I use the least. It's a nice saw but seems to feel the least comfortable when using it. As others have said a little practice and starting either the rip or crosscut gets to be second nature.