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Thread: joint choice

  1. #1
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    joint choice

    No - not that kind of joint.

    I'm building a cabinet something like this:
    2021-03-12_08h10_42.jpg

    Trying to decide how to attach the sides to the base. I could use a loose tenon or a sliding dovetail. The loose tenon would be easier because if I do a sliding DT I need to rip off a piece of the base and re-attach it since the base extends beyond the sides on both the front and the back. Seems like I get more glue area with the loose tenon, and my gut tells me it would be stronger. But then my gut had me bet on the Bears to win the super bowl last year, so..... Curious what your opinion is about which would be stronger, esp if you can do higher math, like maybe an engineer type.
    2021-03-12_08h06_19.jpg
    Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

  2. #2
    I opt for loose tenons for ease.

    The racking will be controlled more by your bracing at the top to a back wall than the bottom connection.

  3. #3
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    Agree with loose tenon. Although I use sliding DT's for such joints on thinner stock where a mortise will weaken things, with modern adhesives the long grain and glue will hold very well.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  4. #4
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    What's the material -- solid lumber, or plywood? And if it is solid lumber, which way does the grain run in each piece involved in the joint?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Buxton View Post
    What's the material -- solid lumber, or plywood? And if it is solid lumber, which way does the grain run in each piece involved in the joint?
    hard maple - grain runs vertically

    2021-03-12_08h06_19.jpg

    the grain on the bottom will be at 90 to the sides
    Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

  6. #6
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    Need more information.
    Where do you require the strength?
    Do you want to prevent racking solely form this joint?
    Does the cabinet have a back?
    Is the cabinet sat on the floor or mounted on the wall?
    If mounted on the wall how high?
    Is there weight on top of the cabinet, or on the shelves.

    How you do stuff depends on many things, you need to provide more info to get suitable suggestions.

    1/8" dado and 4" screws is pretty strong and simple, depends on what, where ,why etc.

  7. #7
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    Mark -
    Where do you require the strength?
    Do you want to prevent racking solely form this joint? no
    Does the cabinet have a back? yes
    Is the cabinet sat on the floor or mounted on the wall? on legs
    If mounted on the wall how high?
    Is there weight on top of the cabinet, or on the shelves. no weight on top, and no interior shelves. There will be drawers - it's a humidor, completely lined with spanish cedar


    ya know I thought about screws and a dado but decided against it on general principles. Meaning it's more fun to make it with proper joinery. Although the connection between the cabinet and the base will involve mechanical fasteners.

    And I'm leaning toward loose tenons - I really can't see that I gain anything from sliding DT's.


    Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

  8. #8
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    If you do one long loose tenon, all the glue faces in the joint will have an end-grain surface. That's not great. Glue doesn't stick to end grain as well as it sticks to face grain. Adding screws up from the bottom would be easy, and would strengthen the joint.

  9. #9
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    Hi Jim,

    Why not do a dado the depth of the round-over edge that you plan on using, 1/8" or 1/4" etc. you can do chamfered edges which gives a very nice clean look. them do a few through wedge tenons.
    This is not going to be under heavy stress like a chair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Carey View Post
    Mark -
    Where do you require the strength?
    Do you want to prevent racking solely form this joint? no
    Does the cabinet have a back? yes
    Is the cabinet sat on the floor or mounted on the wall? on legs
    If mounted on the wall how high?
    Is there weight on top of the cabinet, or on the shelves. no weight on top, and no interior shelves. There will be drawers - it's a humidor, completely lined with spanish cedar


    ya know I thought about screws and a dado but decided against it on general principles. Meaning it's more fun to make it with proper joinery. Although the connection between the cabinet and the base will involve mechanical fasteners.

    And I'm leaning toward loose tenons - I really can't see that I gain anything from sliding DT's.



  10. #10
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    It's hard for me to see any advantage of a loose tenon over a stopped dado. Stopped dado saves you the trouble of mortising the sides and provides pretty much the same amount of gluing surface inside the base.

  11. #11
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    The stopped dado is much wider, any lateral force has far more leverage against the glue joint. The tenon has far less force on the glue joint with lateral movement. The amount of wood remove from the base is far greater for the dado, thus weakening the base more.
    Given the light use for this piece the complexity of the sliding dovetail seems overkill.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  12. #12
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    Thanks for all the comments folks. Going to go with the loose tenon. I'm really comfortable with mortise and tenon work so that will help ease some of the uncertainty I have about this project.
    Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

  13. #13
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    What size of humidor are you making? Are you planning to corner the market on some certain cigar that might become difficult to find? Would you mind disclosing your favorite? All in fun. Thanks
    Rustic? Well, no. That was not my intention!

  14. #14
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    I'm sure you've already moved forward but I was thinking this morning of how to get the benefit of the mechanical lock of the sliding DT and not have to rip the piece off the backside. I don't do sketchup (yet) so I will try to describe what I'm thinking and hopefully be concise enough to convey the thought clearly. I have a feeling though that the work to do this will likely outweigh the value of doing it.

    I'm thinking that instead of 1 long DT on the end of the vertical board, cut notches out of that long DT turning in to maybe 4 short DTs, with a notch on each end. Much like a multi-tenon joint. The short DTs will fit into mortises in the base board and then the vertical slides a few inches into the mating sockets in the base board.

    I guess the first step to cutting the sockets would be to route the dado in the base like you would for the single long DT. Then chisel out mortises ahead of the final position of the sockets in the base. Then route the dovetail into each short socket. Insert DTs into mortises then slide the board to engage the DTs into the sockets. To assure the mortises that allow the DTs into the base do not show after assembly, the DT should be shorter in width than the width of the vertical board.

    I doubt this an original thought but I couldn't come up with an example with a google search.
    Brian

    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger or more complicated...it takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - E.F. Schumacher

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    The stopped dado is much wider, any lateral force has far more leverage against the glue joint. The tenon has far less force on the glue joint with lateral movement. The amount of wood remove from the base is far greater for the dado, thus weakening the base more.
    Given the light use for this piece the complexity of the sliding dovetail seems overkill.

    William, If the dado has a good fit and is glued how does the base become weaker? Would not the base be as solid as if the dado was not cut? I am just trying to understand, I am not trying to be critical.

    Also, not related to above question, I have seen Norm Abram use dados and he says that pin nails toenailed into dados from the horizontal surface to the vertical is stronger then screwing into the vertical from the backside of the base. I do not know if this is true, but thought I would bring it up. Curious minds .

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