GFI breaker vs receptacle?

[Perry Holbrook]

In the process of making a few fixes before we have the house inspected for sale. The kitchen has 5 duplex receptacles that are not GFI. I suspect they are fed from at least 2 circuits. It would be easier just to replace the breakers with GFI on any circuits that feed the kitchen rather than replace the receptacles and figure which direction the wires feed.

Question is, are both methods acceptable?

Thanks,
Perry

[Thomas McCurnin]

Yes, but ...........

I had a GFI Breaker, and if one tool overloads, then the whole circuit, with every outlet on that circuit, stops working.

With a GFI Outlet, if a single tool overloads, then it affects only that outlet, and the rest of the outlets are unaffected.

I prefer a GFI Outlet.

[Stan Calow]

[QUOTE=Thomas McCurnin;3106560]Yes, but ...........


With a GFI Outlet, if a single tool overloads, then it affects only that outlet, and the rest of the outlets are unaffected./QUOTE]


Are you sure about that Tom? Mine are wired so that every outlet downstream is protected. The GFCIs are the first outlet on the circuit

[Lee Schierer]

Yes, but ...........

I had a GFI Breaker, and if one tool overloads, then the whole circuit, with every outlet on that circuit, stops working.

With a GFI Outlet, if a single tool overloads, then it affects only that outlet, and the rest of the outlets are unaffected.

I prefer a GFI Outlet.

A GFI outlet that trips will also cut the power to all outlets downstream from it unless the wires are doubled onto the input screws to the gfi, which is not proper wiring of the device. Only the outlets upstream from the device will remain powered.

[Frank Pratt]

A GFI receptacle tripping has nothing to do with load. It senses leakage current, not circuit current. So if the tool overloads, the whole circuit will still go down. I generally prefer GFI receptacles because it's more convenient to reset it. And the GFI receptacle is about half the price of a GFI breaker.

GFI receptacles have a pair of line terminals & a pair of load terminals. The line is what the feed is connected to. If downstream devices are connected to the load, then they are GF protected. If the wires are pigtailed & connected to the line only, then only that device has GF protection.

[Paul F Franklin]

In the process of making a few fixes before we have the house inspected for sale. The kitchen has 5 duplex receptacles that are not GFI. I suspect they are fed from at least 2 circuits. It would be easier just to replace the breakers with GFI on any circuits that feed the kitchen rather than replace the receptacles and figure which direction the wires feed.

Question is, are both methods acceptable?

Thanks,
Perry

Yes, both provide GFI protection for the receptacles. There's a rub of course. If you're trying to head off a red flag on the inspection, installing GFCI's may not do it. GFCI protection for kitchen receptacles has been required by the NEC since about 1971. Beginning with the 2014 NEC, combination AFCI/GFCI protection is required in for kitchen receptacles.

Generally, you are usually required to meet the code requirements in effect at the time the house was built and/or remodeled. So if your kitchen was remodeled after 2014 and your local jurisdiction adopted the 2014 code before the remodel, then you would need combination AFCI/GFCI protection. This also can be provided with suitable receptacles or with suitable circuit breakers.

The rules about grandfathering and when remodeling requires bringing all affected portions of systems up to current code vary widely from area to area, and many areas don't adopt a given code revision until years after it is issued. It may very well be that adding GFCI's will be "good enough" in your area to avoid a red flag during the inspection; just be aware there is a chance it won't be good enough.

Sometimes it's easier just to have the inspection and deal with the results than it is to try to guess what the inspector will flag.

[Jim Becker]

Sometimes it's easier just to have the inspection and deal with the results than it is to try to guess what the inspector will flag.

^^ This.

I will clarify that while both a protected breaker and a protected outlet that feeds other outlets will do the job, it would be an important thing to know if there are any other things being fed power on the two circuits generally provideing for normal kitchen utility purposes. The breaker may be feeding other things, in other words, than just the utility outlets at the counters, etc. Personally, I'd probably opt for the breaker if I were retrofitting this myself because sometimes it's difficult to know which outlet is "first in line" and that's where a outlet based protection device has to go since it feeds other receptacles beyond it. "Who's on first" is the challenge sometimes and it can be a challenge to trace.

[Bruce Wrenn]

What did the code require when the house was built? That's all the inspector can ask for.

[Perry Holbrook]

Thanks for the discussion. House built in '32, kitchen built in the 60s, rewired and remodeled in '95. Figuring out "Who's on first" is actually my main concern, it's going to be difficult. Plus, and this seems a little silly, the recpt have custom hand made covers that will not work with the GFI recpt. I think the breaker will be the best solution as long as it's legal.

I appreciate the thought of doing nothing and seeing what the inspector finds, but this is so obvious, might as well go ahead and fix it.

[Bruce King]

First figure out what you have going on.
I would turn off both kitchen breakers. (If you only have one that’s the first problem).
Then use a receptacle tester to make sure all kitchen counter receptacles are off.
Check the built in microwave. If it has no power you just found a common remodeling problem. A built in microwave can’t be on either of the two kitchen counter circuits. It’s ok if a gas range uses one of those circuits for its electronics (opinions may differ on the gas range but it would take a stickler to write it up).
The fridge is often allowed on one of these circuits and usually wired at the beginning of the circuit so that it won’t trip the fridge off if something or a problem trips a GFI. This is why it’s best to have the GFI at the next receptacle after the fridge. Some places require the fridge to be on a GFI if it’s within 6 ft of the sink. An inspector is not going to drag the fridge out to see. I don’t like to have a fridge on either kitchen circuit because many people have multiple high current items on the counter that they use often.

[John Goodin]

You are smart to be preemptive with GFCIs. As a home inspector the lack of GFCI gets written up as a safety hazard and it is common for home buyers to ask for the update. Sometimes the “safety hazard” is enough incentive for the buyers to request that an electrician update everything. With recent updates concerning AFCI breakers that can be expensive.

An easy way to find the upstream outlet in the kitchen.
Turn off one circuit to the kitchen outlets and identify those without power.
Typically, the upstream outlet will be at an end and most likely the one closest to the panel.
Pull the outlet and detach the conductors that travel downstream.
Turn the breaker on and see which half the circuit works. If it is just the single outlet add the GFCI there.
If not, it most likely is the outlet at the other end of the run.

If you have any questions about other issues concerning selling let me know. I’d be happy to help.

[Bill Dufour]

Square D QO breakers GFCI and AFCI are physically much longer and take up gutter space in the panel. Too many such breakers and you may run into space issues inside the panel. Unlikely but possible.
Bill D

PS: I hope this is not a Zinsco panel

[Doug Dawson]

^^ This.

I will clarify that while both a protected breaker and a protected outlet that feeds other outlets will do the job, it would be an important thing to know if there are any other things being fed power on the two circuits generally provideing for normal kitchen utility purposes. The breaker may be feeding other things, in other words, than just the utility outlets at the counters, etc. Personally, I'd probably opt for the breaker if I were retrofitting this myself because sometimes it's difficult to know which outlet is "first in line" and that's where a outlet based protection device has to go since it feeds other receptacles beyond it. "Who's on first" is the challenge sometimes and it can be a challenge to trace.

If you know which receptacles are on the circuit, it will almost always be the case that you can follow the circuit from the home run down to the last receptacle on the line by using a load tester and ordering them from lowest percentage voltage loss to highest. For example, the first receptacle might be 1.9% loss @15amps, and the last (end of the run) might be 5.8%. You can verify this by disconnecting the suspected home run receptacle, capping the wires, turning the power back on and checking that the other receptacles still have no power.

It of course goes without saying that making a mistake even with 120v can send you to Davy Spark’s locker, so proceed with care if at all.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Upstream-Downstream. Too complicated. If every outlet has a GFI then if the tool trips the GFI, the rest of the house and all the outlets on that circuit are cool. If it trips, walk 10 feet to the outlet, check for the light and re-set. Easy-Peasy. About 60 seconds if you're slow.

If one has a GFI breaker, and it trips (rain and snow getting into outdoor Christmas Lights happened to me), then it becomes a fool's errand trying to figure out among the half dozen or so exterior outside outlets, which of the rascals is tripping the breaker. Turns into a 30 minute adventure.

I can't imagine ever wanting a GFI breaker, and indeed we took ours out and installed individual GDI outlets. Way easier.

[Doug Dawson]

Upstream-Downstream. Too complicated. If every outlet has a GFI then if the tool trips the GFI, the rest of the house and all the outlets on that circuit are cool.

If a tool trips a GFI (not a breaker) then I would be be very weirded out by that tool, and I would almost certainly throw it away. That current is not going where it’s supposed to, and I would not want to be anywhere near it. Don’t give it to Goodwill, because they don’t deserve to die either. Their employees are not paid very much.

OTOH you could have a bad GFI, but you’re supposed to test them every month. Newer GFI’s auto-test. They do fail.