tuning for fore and jointer plane guidance requested

[Scott Winners]

I am moving into some bigger panels now and need to setup my longer planes. Up to 15x15inch panels I was happy with my results with a #5 Bailey as a finished surface. I have a couple 40 inch panels in progress now.

I have a #6 Bailey all ready to go, except the factory iron is too heavily pitted to sharpen, a PMV11 blade for that one should be here in a month or so. I also have a #8 Bailey (early type 6) with a new Veritas O1 iron in it.

This weekend I have the #8 running. With the chip breaker about 3/16" back from the edge I can take a shaving (face grain poplar) 0.004". If I advance the chip breaker so it is 1/16" from the edge of the iron I can't get a chip at all. So I know I have to open the mouth "some", what I don't want to do is open the mouth too much.

With the chip breaker up close to the edge of the iron on a #8, what is about the thickest shaving I should be able to take? 0.002" or so? Recall I will be able to move from #5 to #6 before reaching for the #8.

Thanks.

[William Fretwell]

When the chip breaker is 3/16” back it is doing basically nothing. At a 1/16” back and no shaving it may be jamming the shaving. Check the fit of the chip breaker to blade. Check the bottom of the chip breaker is flat to the front sharp edge, no secondary bevel. A secondary bevel will catch the shaving and jam, stopping a shaving being produced.
If the mouth is open 1/16” before the blade, that’s a good place to start.
After rough planing with a 5, I would move to the 8 to get it straight. If the finish is not what you want move back to a well tuned 4 for the final few strokes.

[Jim Koepke]

I also have a #8 Bailey (early type 6) with a new Veritas O1 iron in it.

This weekend I have the #8 running. With the chip breaker about 3/16" back from the edge I can take a shaving (face grain poplar) 0.004". If I advance the chip breaker so it is 1/16" from the edge of the iron I can't get a chip at all. So I know I have to open the mouth "some", what I don't want to do is open the mouth too much.

With the chip breaker about 3/16" back from the edge is the 0.004" shaving the thickest shaving you can take? Is the depth at the end of its adjustment? If it is you may have a problem caused by the chip breaker.

What chip breaker are you using?

If the chip breaker is hitting the front edge of the mouth, then it may require a bit of filing on the mouth. The mouth opening should be visible from the top side of the plane. It could also be the chip breaker that is the problem. It might be the top of the mouth on the inside that is hitting the breaker. This could be filed at an angle without increasing the mouth opening.

If thicker shavings jam with the blade advanced, it could be an indication of the frog being too far forward or a need to open the mouth. Some of my early type planes have rather tight mouths.

Use a fine file when opening the mouth and check it every few strokes of the file. Make a mark on the sole using a square and knife or awl as close to the mouth as you can. Stop when you get to the line and check.

Getting a fine shaving from a long plane is a bit trickier than producing a fine shaving from a short plane. A few thousandths of concavity along the length of a jointer will make darn near it impossible.

Tuning longer planes to the point of taking sub thousandths shavings is usually reserved for those with a machine shop.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

If the mouth is open 1/16” before the blade, that’s a good place to start.

Thanks William. I love seeing your posts when I am searching older threads here.

I did double check your advice above. I spent quite a bit of time on the chipbreaker while I was waiting for the new iron to come in.

The rusty iron that came with my plane is about 0.077 inches thick. Maybe even a little less. Once I took enough rust off to see it would never be sharp again I stopped, but I think I was on bare metal on both sides when I measured 0.077.

My new Veritas iron is 0.105 to 0.108 thick. I am sure it is flatter than that and my machinist skills that are lacking, but clearly thicker than the OEM blade.

Before I started opening the mouth of the plane I set the frog so the back side of the mouth opening is coplanar with the bedding surface on the frog, I have it setup for maximum blade support.

At first the mouth was too tight, too narrow, for the iron to reach through the mouth at all, the edge of the iron was hitting the front wall of the mouth.

So I opened the mouth up some, enough to get the edge of the iron through, but where I am now the chip breaker hits the front wall before the edge can reach the work, unless I back the chip breaker away from the edge.

I know I only need to take off a tiny little bit, and I know I need to sneak up on it. Just looking for a target maximum chip thickness. Once I have the mouth opened up just enough to take a shaving ______ thick with the chip breaker as close to the edge as I dare I will stop opening the mouth and back the blade a bit for thinner shavings most of the time.

Thanks for the data point, and good idea to double check the chip breaker before potentially ruining a piece of history.

[Scott Winners]

With the chip breaker about 3/16" back from the edge is the 0.004" shaving the thickest shaving you can take? Is the depth at the end of its adjustment? If it is you may have a problem caused by the chip breaker.

I think it is because I don't have the mouth wide enough yet. Looks like you were typing to me while I was typing to William.

What chip breaker are you using?

OEM with the 1862 patent date on it. I took a long time at 300 grit to get the knife edge on the mating surface of the front, and then stepped it up my stones to 4000 grit. More time with 400 and 1000 grit sandpaper to clean up the surface the chip slides on.

If the chip breaker is hitting the front edge of the mouth, then it may require a bit of filing on the mouth. The mouth opening should be visible from the top side of the plane. It could also be the chip breaker that is the problem. It might be the top of the mouth on the inside that is hitting the breaker. This could be filed at an angle without increasing the mouth opening.

Yes, my chipbreaker is hitting the front wall of the mouth.

If thicker shavings jam with the blade advanced, it could be an indication of the frog being too far forward or a need to open the mouth. Some of my early type planes have rather tight mouths.

It was a tight mouth, an early type 6 with some type 5 features on it. I am tempted to drop the OE iron and chip breaker back in to see how close the chip breaker can get to the edge and still take a shaving.

Use a fine file when opening the mouth and check it every few strokes of the file. Make a mark on the sole using a square and knife or awl as close to the mouth as you can. Stop when you get to the line and check.

I have been using a square and a sharpie pen, then filing off all but the last whisker of ink.

Getting a fine shaving from a long plane is a bit trickier than producing a fine shaving from a short plane. A few thousandths of concavity along the length of a jointer will make darn near it impossible.

Tuning longer planes to the point of taking sub thousandths shavings is usually reserved for those with a machine shop.

jtk

I don't have a machine shop and am not trying to win a thinnest shaving contest. I had a 9x35 inch poplar panel in my lap just a moment ago. Once I get legs under it I will have a keyboarding table at ergonomically correct height. I was able to get it "flat enough" yesterday with the chip breaker set back 3/16, but I know the tool is capable of more.

[Scott Winners]

Well I am done. I got the mouth opened up enough to take a full width shaving 0.004" thick 40 inches long, chipbreaker within a sixteenth of the edge, and that will be enough for me for the rest of this lifetime. If some future owner of the plane wants to open the mouth up some so they can take a thicker chip they can by golly open the mouth up a little more themselves. 0.002 seems like a reasonable chip thickness for this plane and my shoulders.

The block of Doug Fir is nominal 3x11x40 inches, future leg vise chop. Makes me tingle all over to feel how smooth it is.

20210307_165016[1].jpg

[William Fretwell]

Scott, you have committed the new blade to the plane so don’t be shy about opening the mouth some more. That will give you the option to move the bed a little, right now the bed can only be in one position. You won’t be ruining a piece of history but breathing new life into it! Glad you got it to function.

[Scott Winners]

Scott, you have committed the new blade to the plane so don’t be shy about opening the mouth some more. That will give you the option to move the bed a little, right now the bed can only be in one position. You won’t be ruining a piece of history but breathing new life into it! Glad you got it to function.

What would be the advantage to moving the bed a little? I am asking because I don't know, no offense intended.

The way I have it set up the iron is getting maximum support from both the bedding surface of the frog and the coplanar mouth opening, the mouth is open far enough to take a bigger chip than I want to take with the chip breaker set close, and I have left all the metal I can in front of the mouth. I have read a few places (not sophisticated enough to know if it is true) that the sole of the plane right in front of the mouth helps prevent tear out.

Is an increased risk of tearout worth the ability to be sloppy in placing the frog, or give the power to change the bedding angle enough to deal with occasional wild grain? It is the best hypothesis I can come up with, and I am already standing on some ideas I don't know for sure are true. Appreciate your wisdom here William, the longest planes I have fooled with before are Bailey number 5.

[Jim Koepke]

At first the mouth was too tight, too narrow, for the iron to reach through the mouth at all, the edge of the iron was hitting the front wall of the mouth.

Good information to know. The stock blades from Stanley were advertised as being easier to sharpen due to being thinner. The patent on the chip breaker mentions it being useful to stop the flexing of the thin blade.

Before I started opening the mouth of the plane I set the frog so the back side of the mouth opening is coplanar with the bedding surface on the frog, I have it setup for maximum blade support.

The best way to get good solid blade support.

Thanks for the data point, and good idea to double check the chip breaker before potentially ruining a piece of history.

IMO, a plane working to its potential is a much better piece of history than an unused plane sitting in a box that has never been used. Those are for collectors who do not know how to use a plane.

I have left all the metal I can in front of the mouth. I have read a few places (not sophisticated enough to know if it is true) that the sole of the plane right in front of the mouth helps prevent tear out.

Is an increased risk of tearout worth the ability to be sloppy in placing the frog, or give the power to change the bedding angle enough to deal with occasional wild grain?

If need be more can always be taken out later. Once it is taken out it can not be put back. You might get some tearout, that is what a smoother can remedy.

A tight mouth does help some with lifting grain (tear out). The chip breaker can affect it more. A thin shaving also helps to atenuate tear out. This is where the smoother cleans up.

Bedding angle can be changed by a back bevel or modifying the frog. Bob Smalser has a post in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs showing how to accomplish this.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

The main reason is if wanting to hog off a lot of wood with the plane, particularly a soft wood, a larger opening may be required. You can use a jack plane for that and reserve this plane for final flattening. The bed and opening lined up is the best support but your new blade is far stiffer than the old one. The bed was designed to be moved so don’t feel tied to the bottom edge of the opening. I would leave it as is until the need arises!

[Robert Hazelwood]

For full-width shavings on a #8, I doubt you'll go much above 0.005" shaving thickness, ever. It takes a lot of muscle to pull a 2-5/8" wide shaving of any thickness. Of coarse, you can go much thicker edge-planing a 3/4" wide board, but usually I'm still taking thinner shavings with the #8 because I'm trying to dial in a perfect edge.

So I wouldn't worry about the mouth opening too much, although it's nice to have a little room to avoid clogs. And you'll want to be able to get the cap iron closer than 1/16" from the edge- on some occasions you might want to get it within 10 thou of the edge, if you have a lot of reversing grain.