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Thread: Waterbase Poly over Watco Danish Oil?

  1. #1
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    Waterbase Poly over Watco Danish Oil?

    Can it be done? I'm new to the WB finish world and in need of some education.

    I'm building a Cherry hall\sofa style table that will hold plants in front of a window that gets sun. I would like to use water base Poly, sprayed, but concerned if it will "pop" the grain of the Cherry. Can I apply WDO natural first to give it a amber tone and pop the grain and will the WB finish adhere to it? Or is there a better way such as just wipe on oil poly? I have a Lee Valley that carries GF and Target finishes near by, but would like to know if this will work before spending the $$ on a LV.

    Thanks in advance, Vince
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    It will work if you wait long enough for the Danish oil to cure; several days at least. It would be better, however, if you spray a coat of dewaxed shellac over the Danish oil. But you should make some samples as you may find out that just the dewaxed shellac gives you all the grain enhancement you were looking for from the Danish oil.

    If you want a one stop option, look at TC's EM-9300. It has an amber tint and looks great on cherry. It also has a really good UV package to stand up to the sun and is exterior rated.

    John

  3. #3
    it can be done, i did it just today in fact. john nailed it - let the danish oil dry for a long time. i put air on it and let it dry a week. then, i wipe it off with DNA, and i seal the surface with seal-a-cell. let that dry, scuff with a red pad, and then spray waterborne. in my case, sayerlack. honestly, it's a pretty darn nice finish, but the dry time makes it nearly impossible to do at scale. if you can avoid the danish oil, and use a polymerizing oil (like seal-a-cell) to pop the grain, it's much faster and more reliable.

    in a previous job, i used shellac as the barrier coat between the watco and the sayerlack, and that didn't go well. the sayerlack ripped the shellac off, crazing the finish. the seal-a-cell is a far better option, and the sayerlack absolutely sticks. i have kitchens in production for years with this technique. but again... it's not my favorite approach.

    -- dz

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    The problem you describe, Dave, with WB crazing when applied over shellac, can often be avoided if you only use a single sprayed coat at no more than 1 lb cut. I don't know if will work with the Sayerlack you use, but it does with the GF and TC products I've used. Might be worth evaluating because shellac would cut out a lot of time waiting for the Seal-A-Cell to cure.

    John

  5. #5
    yep. lesson learned. i went way too heavy on my shellac, creating too thick of a "soft" layer. it's remarkable how strong the sayerlack is when drying!

    i can absolutely make it work but backing off on the shellac a little. the thing i like about the seal-a-cell is that on open-grained woods, it soaks in. when i spray shellac, it bridges across the grain. so, while the 24 hour dry time with the seal-a-cell isn't ideal, i really do like the end result more, and i'm much more confident that the underlying watco is locked in, away from the the waterborne. the experience i had with the shellac barrier coat - despite being entirely my fault by going to heavy - was so disastrous and expensive, i shy away from it and have decided to move forward with what i know works, and is "dave-proof." maybe one day i'll go back to the shellac.... but for now, at least with open-grained woods, i really like this recipe.

    -- dz



    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    The problem you describe, Dave, with WB crazing when applied over shellac, can often be avoided if you only use a single sprayed coat at no more than 1 lb cut. I don't know if will work with the Sayerlack you use, but it does with the GF and TC products I've used. Might be worth evaluating because shellac would cut out a lot of time waiting for the Seal-A-Cell to cure.

    John

  6. #6
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    Thanks for all the info. I got sidetracked with more research. I found 2 that might be usable. One is Emtech 2000wvx and the other is GF EnduroVar Urethane Varnish. They both have a amber tint so I might be able to skip the Watco DO. Are these a good choice? I will be doing samples. Thanks again.
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    EM2000 is really nice. But yea, ALWAYS test anything on scrap of the same project first and that test should be every step.
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  8. #8
    Supposedly the Enduro Var can't be used over shellac, just raw wood and water based stains and dyes. Definitely test it first. I wasn't thrilled with how it looked over cherry when I did my samples. Which is really weird, because it looked great over red birch.

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    Thanks Jim. I've been following your high praise of EM8000 but I can't find a Canadian distributor and our borders are closed to travel. Will the EM2000 give a nice amber look like oil base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    EM2000 is really nice. But yea, ALWAYS test anything on scrap of the same project first and that test should be every step.
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    Thanks Andrew
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  11. #11
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    To get the look of an oil based varnish with water based products I've had good luck using Sealcoat shellac first, then the WB varnish. EnduroVar is great stuff, but not as amber by itself as OB varnish. I've never used a WB product alone that is.

    If Sealcoat plus the WB topcoat is not amber enough for you then it's time for a different approach. For me, that means using dye, either dying the wood directly, or by adding dye to the WB topcoat. Either way works, but the look is slightly different.

    Make samples and keep good notes.

    John

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince dale View Post
    Thanks Jim. I've been following your high praise of EM8000 but I can't find a Canadian distributor and our borders are closed to travel. Will the EM2000 give a nice amber look like oil base?
    Yes, it will. Why? Because it's an emulsified alkyd clear finish. In a sense, it's "oil base" with a water carrier. It has a natural amber hue. EM2000 takes a hair longer to dry than other Target Coatings products, but you should enjoy the end result because it's made to be "warm" rather than "clear/cold".
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  13. #13
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    Thanks for all your info. I managed to find Sealcoat in town at HD and the EM2000 will be here Thursday from Wood Essence. Looking forward to experimenting.
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    I'm sold on Water Born finishes! Love the drying time compared to oil base. Easily 3 coats in a day. I did some samples with EM2000 only and found it was kind of bland and just brown. Next was Sealcoat and EM2000 which living it up, so I went with that. It hilited the grain and gave it a nice amber glow that I wanted. The Sealcoat and EM2000 where straight out of the can, no thinning. Both sprayed very well and I gave them a very light sand after each coat with a worn out blue sand pad. Baby smooth.

    IMG_0582.jpg
    Last edited by vince dale; 03-21-2021 at 5:31 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Seemann View Post
    Supposedly the Enduro Var can't be used over shellac, just raw wood and water based stains and dyes. Definitely test it first. I wasn't thrilled with how it looked over cherry when I did my samples. Which is really weird, because it looked great over red birch.
    Try a little Transtint Brown Mahogany dye first. This is cherry with 1% TT Br. Mahogany in water, sprayed on, then 2 coats of EnduroVar Satin. Not the mahogany drawer fronts, the cabinet they sit on.






    Also, EnduroVar can be used over Sealcoat shellac. GF used to say that it could, now they say not to. But it has worked for me w/o issue for 10 years.

    John

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