DC and ducting advice...

[Steve Wurster]

Hey all. I'm planning on upgrading the DC setup in my basement shop this year. Right now I'm running a 1.5 HP Delta with a Super Dust Deputy and some 5" snap-lock pipe. It's sufficient, but really not all that performant. I'd like my new setup to have more power overall, and be able to collect from both underneath and above my table saw at the same time.

The primary limiting factor for any new setup is space. Having a basement shop with low ceilings means I can't (easily) install the big dust collectors, and I also can't run the ductwork diagonally or in any other truly efficient manner. Instead I have to run ductwork up between joists (and above HVAC ducts), and make a few more bends than would generally be recommended.

Below is a rough Sketchup drawing of my shop along with my plan for a new DC and upgraded ductwork. The only tools in this picture that accurately reflect what I own are the K3 table saw and the Grizzly bandsaw hiding in the corner. I have a different drum sander, different jointer/planer, slightly different router table, different drill press, and slightly different workbench. These are the closest things I could find on the Sketchup 3D warehouse. That being said, the placement of these tools in the picture and their relative sizes does reflect my shop equipment and layout. Due to the size of my shop, using any of those tools on the far wall requires sliding them out, hooking them up to power and DC, etc. None of them can be used in their "stored" locations. Note: one thing that's missing in the drawing is my lumber rack: that is hanging on the left-side wall between the cyclone and where the cement wall juts in. Underneath of that on the floor are litter boxes for cats, so that wall and floor are unusable by me for anything else.

For reference, the total width (from workbench wall to router table wall) is about 16', while the length is about 24'. The distance from the floor to the bottom of the joists is ~93", while the distance to the top of the joists is ~104".

You'll note the "transparent" boxes up around the duct work. The long ones running along the "width" are joists, with that one joist being a manufactured one that's wider than a standard 2x12; the other joists are not shown. The boxes running along the "length" represent obstructions: HVAC ducts, house sprinkler system, water pipes, etc. Those are of course all located under the joists, and they all pretty much extend the entire length of the shop. That's the reason the far duct comes down like it does, the reason the closer duct bends 90 degrees where it does, etc. Those obstructions are pretty much everywhere in my ceiling space. That is, this is really the only "open" joist bay in my shop, and attempting to run ductwork under the HVAC duct is not something I want to do.

Here's my current plan: Install an Oneida V-3000 where the cyclone is located in the picture. I would love to get the 5HP Dust Gorilla Pro, but I'm pretty sure it will not (easily) fit in my shop; there's little-to-no flexibility with regard to its placement, while the lower height of the V-3000 means I can move it around a little as needed. I'm not thrilled with the double-elbows leading into the cyclone inlet, but given the limited space this seems like the best option.

The ductwork shown is 7" Nordfab (models sourced from 3D warehouse); I would most likely go with Nordfab or equivalent due to ease of installation, easy of expansion / modification, and because I won't have to tape up ductwork that lives up in the joists. The far wye branch is a 7-5-4; all 4 of those tools along that wall have 5" Magport hookups already, while I can use the 4" line for secondary pickup on both the bandsaw and router table. The wye branch next to the cyclone will also be a 7-5-4; the 5" will drop down to the floor and connect to the bottom of my table saw, while the 4" will go to a (future) overhead pickup. Yes, the path from the cyclone to that wye is "complicated", but given the position of the cyclone and the space restrictions, this seems like the best option. That 7" line that ends in space is for future expansion and will be capped.

Does this seem like a good plan? The V-3000 has a 7" OD opening, so I believe I can use 7" ductwork for this, but I'm wondering if I should go with 6" instead. Splitting a 7" line into 5" and 4" seems like I might be restricting the system a bit too much. I can of course start with 7" off the cyclone and have each of those ceiling-mounted 45" degree splitters be 7-7-6, thus making the two "drops" be 6" lines, but I don't know if that's worth it versus just running all 6" or all 7". Also note that I have the gates above the splitters; I'm thinking both the 5" and 4" lines should be open even when not being used (e.g. I don't use the 4" when planing), as that will ensure enough air is being provided to the cyclone.

Thoughts? Critiques? Any and all advice is welcome. Thanks.

workshop.jpg

[Jim Becker]

Steve, I think that's a reasonably good design given the nature of your shop and those pesky mechanicals that are just not going to move out of your way. I actually like how you leveraged that joist space to get up and over to the other side of the space. Stick with the 7" main and do your drops with 5" for best flexibility now and in the future when (not if) you upgrade your shop space. The only thing that 6" will buy you for this small setup is maybe a little easier routing in some places.

[Frank Pratt]

Locate your cyclone a little differently so you'll have at least a few feet of straight run heading into the cyclone. That allows the air heading into the cyclone to be less turbulent & better dust separation. The manual should tell you how many feet is the minimum.

[Charlie Jones]

If you will put the cyclone outside in a shed or attached closet, you will enjoy not listening the the horrible noise. I agree, the duct coming into the cyclone should be straight if possible

[Steve Wurster]

Steve, I think that's a reasonably good design given the nature of your shop and those pesky mechanicals that are just not going to move out of your way. I actually like how you leveraged that joist space to get up and over to the other side of the space. Stick with the 7" main and do your drops with 5" for best flexibility now and in the future when (not if) you upgrade your shop space. The only thing that 6" will buy you for this small setup is maybe a little easier routing in some places.

I currently have a 5" line off my Super Dust Deputy in that exact same joist bay and down onto the far wall like shown in the picture. There's just a ~10' line of 5" hose hanging off it though, so any secondary pickups are done with an under-powered Shop Vac. Hopefully I can get better secondary pickup over there with a 4" hose or even a 3" hose, coupled with the main 5" hose (which of course should also benefit from increased pickup).

Both of the vertical drops are 7" lines that then split into 5" and 4". I am a little worried that splitting into 5" and 4" is actually not enough, since the combined cross section of those is less than that of a 7" line. That's why I'm partly debating just going with 6" vertical drops and then 5" and 3" split off from that. I'm going to run these ideas by my contact at Oneida and see what they think.

[Steve Wurster]

Locate your cyclone a little differently so you'll have at least a few feet of straight run heading into the cyclone. That allows the air heading into the cyclone to be less turbulent & better dust separation. The manual should tell you how many feet is the minimum.

Unfortunately I don't really have another place to put the cyclone. Height limitations and the placement of various obstructions heavily limits where I can put the DC. If I turn the cyclone 90 degrees and aim it across the shop I will still have to go up quickly so that I can get it up between the joists. At least the angle shown allows me to have a little bit of straight pipe before that "S" curve into the cyclone.

It might be possible to put the unit in the corner next to the router table, with the line aiming toward the drill press (and then up and over to above the TS, etc.). There is some room there, but it would probably require me removing part of that cabinet and removing the french cleat wall that sits above it (the cleats aren't pictured). Plus that's basically a giant "U" run back to the jointer/planer, etc. I also can't really put the unit in that corner and aim toward the router table, as the line would literally be right in my face in that scenario.

Another possibility is along where the cement wall juts out in the far left of the picture. That is, along that wall that is indented back there. But for that to work the duct line would also have to go up immediately out of the cyclone, otherwise I would be walking into it when walking into my shop or walking over to my lumber rack. Plus in that layout the inlet is furthest from the wall, meaning I would have to bend the line back towards the wall at some point so that I can line it up for going up into the joists. If I come straight out of the inlet then the line ends up almost right under the leftmost edge of that vertical wye branch that leads up into the joists.

Yeah, I know this isn't an ideal setup, but it's a basement shop with a lot of restrictions.

[Steve Wurster]

If you will put the cyclone outside in a shed or attached closet, you will enjoy not listening the the horrible noise. I agree, the duct coming into the cyclone should be straight if possible

It's a basement shop under the front portion of my house; there is no outside placement possible. My existing low-powered DC is in the exact same location where the new one is pictured, so I'm already used to the DC noise being in my shop. The new one might be louder, but I rarely run the DC without wearing ear protection anyway (since I'll most likely be firing up a tool).

And see my reply to Frank about why I can't really put a straight line into the cyclone due to obstructions, height limits, etc.

[Charlie Jones]

It's a basement shop under the front portion of my house; there is no outside placement possible. My existing low-powered DC is in the exact same location where the new one is pictured, so I'm already used to the DC noise being in my shop. The new one might be louder, but I rarely run the DC without wearing ear protection anyway (since I'll most likely be firing up a tool).

And see my reply to Frank about why I can't really put a straight line into the cyclone due to obstructions, height limits, etc.

I understand there are compromises in every shop. I suggest building a enclosure around the cyclone.

[Jim Becker]

I understand there are compromises in every shop. I suggest building a enclosure around the cyclone.

In Steve’s case, that could bring material handling challenges ... I’ve been in his shop and that Lille space along the cone may sometime be important. I agree with the theory and have it executed in my current shop, however.

Steve, don’t sweat the drop size too much since the distances are not great. And as an aside, a much larger shop will be on the market near you in a couple months for sure...wink, wink...nod, nod... ��

[Steve Wurster]

I understand there are compromises in every shop. I suggest building a enclosure around the cyclone.

I don't even think I can enclose the cyclone if I have it in that location. LOL Seriously though, in that location the unit is effectively surrounded on all sides, with not a whole lot of room for any kind of enclosure. We'll see how noisy it will be compared to my current unit though, so if it turns out to be annoying I will try to build something around it.

[Steve Wurster]

In Steve’s case, that could bring material handling challenges ... I’ve been in his shop and that Lille space along the cone may sometime be important. I agree with the theory and have it executed in my current shop, however.

Steve, don’t sweat the drop size too much since the distances are not great. And as an aside, a much larger shop will be on the market near you in a couple months for sure...wink, wink...nod, nod... ��

The empty wall to the "left" of the cyclone is taken up by my horizontal lumber rack. While I could in theory shorten that or even shift it and place the cyclone somewhere in that area, I would of course lose lumber storage due to the ductwork going right along a shelf of it (and ~24" off the wall due to the inlet placement on Oneida cyclones). Plus as I noted previously the cat litter boxes are on the floor below the lumber rack, so they would have to be moved and might end up more in the way as a result. It's a good idea, but not really practical for my layout.

What do you mean by not sweating the drop size? Do you mean that splitting the vertical 7" line into 5" and 4" will be fine since the total distance for the far run is maybe about 20' of pipe?

[Charlie Jones]

I don't even think I can enclose the cyclone if I have it in that location. LOL Seriously though, in that location the unit is effectively surrounded on all sides, with not a whole lot of room for any kind of enclosure. We'll see how noisy it will be compared to my current unit though, so if it turns out to be annoying I will try to build something around it.

I understand. You have the same size shop as mine. I have a little advantage in that my lumber storage and cyclone are outside. All my ducts are 6” dropping to 5” and 4 at the machines. With the cyclone in this location all the pipes are short. It should work ok.

[Jim Becker]

The empty wall to the "left" of the cyclone is taken up by my horizontal lumber rack. While I could in theory shorten that or even shift it and place the cyclone somewhere in that area, I would of course lose lumber storage due to the ductwork going right along a shelf of it (and ~24" off the wall due to the inlet placement on Oneida cyclones). Plus as I noted previously the cat litter boxes are on the floor below the lumber rack, so they would have to be moved and might end up more in the way as a result. It's a good idea, but not really practical for my layout.

What do you mean by not sweating the drop size? Do you mean that splitting the vertical 7" line into 5" and 4" will be fine since the total distance for the far run is maybe about 20' of pipe?

You can always hang a moving blanket or something like that to capture some of the direct sound, but I agree that an enclosure isn't going to work for you since I've seen the space and understand your situation.

What I meant by the don't sweat the drop size too much is that your duct network will be pretty compact so you can do what makes sense and is practical. For splitting a drop off the 7", a 5+4 isn't a horrible idea, however, such as for your slider for both cabinet and overarm if that applies. I would not many any direct drop from the main less than 5", however. For a single woodworker, keeping the network simple makes sense...no way would I do a stepped system like I have now in the new shop, but that was what was recommended two decades ago because nobody designing considered that it would be mostly one drop at a time with a single woodworker. The designers were mostly used to larger shops with multiple tools and multiple people. I will likely do a 7" main like you in the new shop with largely 5" drops.

[Steve Wurster]

You can always hang a moving blanket or something like that to capture some of the direct sound, but I agree that an enclosure isn't going to work for you since I've seen the space and understand your situation.

What I meant by the don't sweat the drop size too much is that your duct network will be pretty compact so you can do what makes sense and is practical. For splitting a drop off the 7", a 5+4 isn't a horrible idea, however, such as for your slider for both cabinet and overarm if that applies. I would not many any direct drop from the main less than 5", however. For a single woodworker, keeping the network simple makes sense...no way would I do a stepped system like I have now in the new shop, but that was what was recommended two decades ago because nobody designing considered that it would be mostly one drop at a time with a single woodworker. The designers were mostly used to larger shops with multiple tools and multiple people. I will likely do a 7" main like you in the new shop with largely 5" drops.

Gotcha. Yeah, It's definitely just a single-person shop in my basement. lol

I don't plan on making any direct drop be 5 or less". There's only 2 vertical drops, and right now they are both planned out as 7" that each split into 5" and 4". The idea is to put some kind of overhead pickup on the slider, whether it's using the existing riving knife-mounted guard or a full-size boom-style one. On the other side the 5" will be for the "main" pickup on each tool, while the 4" will be for secondary pickup (e.g. router fence).

I am partly leaning toward 6" drops however because going with a 6" blast gate means I can get fancy in the future and use something like an iVac automated gate, as they have support for 6" gates. While that might not ever happen, or might be way down the line, preparing for it now would be a good idea. lol

[Jim Becker]

It's a good idea to plan for both now and your future intentions since reuse of that clamp together ductwork is a certainty.