Understanding Laser Tubes and Large Format Laser Cutting Options

[Nellie Skallerup]

Howdy fine folks of Sawmill Creek!

I work for a small company that is about to purchase a large format laser to help us make our really cool artistic products. I will be the laser operator. This is a huge purchase for our small company, and we already had a poor experience with our first attempt at getting the right tool. We are currently looking at the Trotec SP 3000, the Kern OptiFlex and the Vytek LST510. We are having a hard time understanding why the tube for the Vytek supposedly has the longest expected lifespan and the cheapest replacement cost. I would love to better understand what the differences are between these tubes and I'm not sure I trust the sales guys to give me the honest answers. I THINK the Kerns make their own tubes and claim a 3-5 yr lifespan, the Trotec claims 4-5 years "or longer" on their 200W Water cooled Synrad, and the Vytek's 200 Watt water cooled is a ceramic based Iradion with a 5 to 8 year lifespan. I understand that a clean environment is an important factor in tube lifespan....and I would imagine that usage and care would also be factors in tube lifespan.

If anyone here can share their tube knowledge with me, that'd be great. And since yalls have way more experience with lasers than me, I'd love to get some tips from any of you that have had experience with any of these different laser makers....or if there is one we should be considering that we haven't yet discovered! Our biggest requirement is that the working area needs to be at least 5x10' - (passthrough style won't work for us.) We are only going to be cutting wood, our thickest material will be a quarter inch plywood. We will also be cutting eighth inch, mostly cedar....sometimes aspen...and a tiny bit of walnut. Speed is also a pretty important factor for us, as some of our designs have some super detailed cuts. We are also a little confused as to how the Trotec's test cut for us was able to cut nearly twice as fast as the test cuts from the other two makers....similar wattages. My best guess is that the Trotrec's gantry might be lighter than the other two? Allowing it to move faster? I think they all have the Servo Motors. Are there different types of Servo Motors that can drastically change speed capabilities?

I am also pretty confused about laser safety. When I ask the sales guys about it....it feels like they are not able to be fully honest with me and I can't tell if it's more dangerous or less dangerous than what they are saying. lol. I'm also super confused about if Trotec's claim on running their SP3000 as a class 2 is legit, because the Kern guy says his OSHA guy wouldn't approve that type of design as class 2. So I turn to you my dear Sawmill Creek community to tell me what's real...not just a sales pitch. Tell me what's real. What's been good for you on your woodcutting laser journeys...what have been your challenges...what do you wish you would have known.

Thanks!
-Nellie
Future Laser Operator

[Nick Michalares]

I'm not an expert on the details, however, my understanding is Class 2 emits random, reflected beam since it's not enclosed. This means it has the possibility to hit your eyes. My 2nd hand knowledge is the CO2 beam just burns the water from the lens of your eye. If it's fiber, it burns the retina. Either way, I'm not too happy being around a class 2 unless I'm wearing laser goggles or cannot see where the beam is emitted. Class 4 is totally enclosed with safety devices to eliminate (or at least make it harder) to operate without being totally enclosed. Make sure you get a CO2 or Halon type extinguisher, fires are expensive, ABC cleanup is not recommended. Someone else will have to testify as to machine details. Welcome and Good luck. PS, they like details, I assume you're from the south, since you say Y'all, but we like to know the dirt...Lol.

[Mike Null]

Nellie

Welcome to SMC. The info that I have indicates that Trotec uses Iradian tubes in all their co2 lasers. Vytek makes no mention of Iradian on their web site. As far as cutting is concerned, there shouldn't be a lot of difference in cut time if all have the same power.

[Nellie Skallerup]

Nick, I think the Class 2 are enclosed and the Class 4 are not. Maybe you meant that the other way around? Either way I do intend on wearing some goggles. Do you have any suggestions on shopping for laser goggles? I talked to one laser safety glasses company and I was surprised that there were so few goggle options! Thanks for the information about the CO2 beam just burning the water in your eye vs the fiber that can burn the retina. I haven't heard that before but it's helpful for me to better understand how to keep safety top of mind! Thanks! PS actually I'm from the north! but I enjoy attempting to add personality to my text

[Nellie Skallerup]

The info that I have indicates that Trotec uses Iradian tubes in all their co2 lasers. Vytek makes no mention of Iradian on their web site.

Maybe Trotec did something different for their large format SP 3000. I double checked today with both the Trotec and Vytek sales people. Trotec is using a Synrad RF and the Vytek we are looking at is using an Ceramic Based Iradion laser. Vytek is telling me they can recharge a tube for $1,700. Is this real!?

As far as cutting is concerned, there shouldn't be a lot of difference in cut time if all have the same power.

Good to know. Thanks!

[Mike Null]

It shouldn't be too much of a drive for you to go to the Trotec US HQ and see the machine first hand.

[Ralph Undis]

If you are going to make a purchase like this, it might be worth your time to visit the 3 vendors. I am biased, because I live in MN and Kern is in Wadena, MN. They have 40 employees, and are a family run business. I don't know how much stock I would put into Trotec saying they were 2 times faster unless I could see it in person.

I would be more concerned with how efficient the control software is in regards to the time it takes to open the file, process it, and hit start on the laser.

The other question that is important is support. I have watched some Kern Youtube videos of small companies who have purchased Kern and are testimonials. It might be beneficial to contact each vendor, and have them supply you with their list of testimonials. Then, do your own research and find owners who would be willing to answer your questions.

Good luck in your search.

[Nellie Skallerup]

We sent them our materials and did a video conference / demo. We love the Trotec. I think we are going to pull the trigger on it this week. I'm just nervous I'm picking it for irrational reasons, like, it's so sleek and sexy....it's the BMW. Shipping the unit and replacement tubes are more expensive than the Kern or Vytek, as well as the install of needed electric hookups. The Kern is probably the Cadillac, well made, I'm sure would do a great job...it's just missing that sleek European design. I feel like the Vytek might be comparable to a Kia or something. Since we had a really....... experience with a Boss LSR Hybrid that we had to send back....I just don't want to make the wrong decision on this next purchase. And if the Trotec can run 8 hours a day with minimal maintenance, minimal downtime, easy enough workflow from my AI files (I'm feeling if we went with Kern I'd have to learn CorelDraw :/ ) and twice as fast at cutting compared to the Kern and Vytek, the extra $35k might actually be well justified.

[Nellie Skallerup]

Thanks Ralph. These are all good suggestions. If we weren't under such a time crunch, I agree, seeing the machines in person would be a good idea. We did a dumb thing and put too much of our business growth plan resting on this machine....we were originally supposed to get a laser cutter tool in August, and somehow that turned into January...and then 30 days of us realizing it was not the right machine for us. Our business is very seasonal and even though it's hard to imagine spring is just around the corner... :/ gulp....it is and we are about to be flooded. We could get a Kern in 5 to 6 weeks, the Trotec would be at least 10. But I'm still leaning towards the Trotec. Kern does look like a great company, and I'm sure I'd come back from training with a refreshed accent, since I was raised in the UP. lol. Trotec's training would come to us...which has a bunch of pros. Oh my, what a tough decision.

[Kev Williams]

Just had to laugh at 'it's missing that sleek European design'...

I've been involved in the engraving business since 1966, full-time since 1976; pantographs until 1981, computer controlled rotary machines since then, and started lasering in 2001...

This is a picture of part of my in-home shop, which is laser engraved onto non-laserable Rowmark by my Gravograph LS900- it won me a GoPro from the Creek
AbyssAll (2).jpg
This picture entails 2 things:
1- My LS900 is a very good laser engraver, and
2- I'm not the least bit concerned with how pretty it is

This is the day I got it in 2004,
LS900 2004.jpg

And this is what it looked like in 2015--
LS900 2015.jpg
--and it hasn't gotten any better looking 6 years later! Ugly as it may be but it's still the best laser I've owned

I don't have pretty machines, they just work... Just sayin'

[Nellie Skallerup]

Just had to laugh at 'it's missing that sleek European design'...

Lol. I knew yalls would get a kick out of that. I wouldn't go for the machine JUST because it has a sleek European design....but it certainly is a pro on the pro/con list. Also, we actually will be having a lot of customers coming through our shop, so having a high end vibe does help match with our high end products. Trotec does have a location in my state, so that's also a pro. If we need a service tech, less travel time for them, hopefully less downtime for us. This is such a challenging decision to make

[Ralph Undis]

About 18 months ago, I was going to purchase a Trotec Speedy 300. I was at a 2 day technical seminar, and gave the Trotec sales rep one of my layered PDF files exported out of AI CS3. He imported it into Job Control, and it locked up his computer, and also the server that was running the laser. He mentioned that the demo computers they were using were old. It left me questioning how much faith I would have in Job Control.

When I send the same file to the Universal Laser Systems UCP software, it converted it in about 3 seconds. I spoke to a technical rep from Trotec, who worked for Universal Laser Systems for 15+ years, and he said that there were some issues with Job Control, and that they were rewriting it to be web based program (Ruby). Looks like Ruby will possibly replace Job Control in 12-18 months.

The Trotec SP3000 might look hot, but how many do they have installed, and how many do they manufacture per year. I used to work with large format lasers that cut 3/4" maple, and the key isn't what they look like, it's how they perform, and how often they break down. Does Trotec in Michigan stock all of the replacement parts for the SP3000, or do they have to be shipped from Austria?

[Mike Null]

My guess, based on about 12 years using Trotec, is that they have the parts on hand. Even if they don't it's a one day flight and delivery from Austria so it's not a concern I would have.

I have also been using JC for that time and find it to be a very robust software. I send my jobs to JC from CorelDraw but generally have no issues with AI files.

[Nellie Skallerup]

I used to work with large format lasers that cut 3/4" maple, and the key isn't what they look like, it's how they perform, and how often they break down. Does Trotec in Michigan stock all of the replacement parts for the SP3000, or do they have to be shipped from Austria?

Great questions. I believe Trotec has about 40 SP3000 in the USA. What brand and model large format laser did you use? What kind of power did you need to get through 3/4" maple?! Was it a fiber or CO2? I have a colleague who has had a Speedy 300 for a year now, and he has experienced no downtime, no alignment issues and minimal maintenance time. Trotec did send me a contact of a woman who has a SP3000 and she loves it....though I think she is cutting paper and engraving acrylic. It's so hard to truly get an "apples to apples" comparison. I certainly trust actual user experience over what the sales guys tell me. But Vy-tek is telling me they can "recharge" a tube for $1,700. Trotec is telling me that is likely just the base price for a tube repair and that an actual replacement or recharge is going to be closer to $10,000 to $17,000. I'm curious how often people have to deal with replacing or repairing a tube and if $9,000 to $22,000 is really the going rate for that. I'm being told that environment NOT use is the biggest factor for maximizing tube life. SO much to learn!

[Nellie Skallerup]

My guess, based on about 12 years using Trotec, is that they have the parts on hand. Even if they don't it's a one day flight and delivery from Austria so it's not a concern I would have.

I have also been using JC for that time and find it to be a very robust software. I send my jobs to JC from CorelDraw but generally have no issues with AI files.

Yay. This is what I want hear. lol. But I'm doing my best to look and see all the angles so I can feel confident we are making a smart decision.