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Thread: Change my mind

  1. #16
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    My more intended point though was to ask what takes more skill accurate dimensioning or cutting joinery.
    My own experience was being able to cut dovetails or mortise and tenons before being able to accurately dimension a board. So for me cutting joinery capable of holding together was easier than getting two pieces flat while the same size and thickness.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  2. #17
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    What Warren said.

    You also need to know your planes well. By practice you will know your jack and try plane settings so that you have an idea of how many strokes it takes to take so and so much of light under the straight edge away. And knowing how deep defects your Jack plane might leave, so that you're not arriving at final thickness, and then have to remove the tearout.

    And by thinking - observing the board and seeing where you need to save wood to arrive at a certain thickness. This means sometimes taking both high corners down equally, and sometimes leaving one, and taking the other completely.

    I often flip the board a couple of times. If it is very out of flat it rocks around a lot on the bench. Then I take the worst high spots down so that I can flip it and lay it down pretty stable and work on the other side. then flip back.

  3. #18
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    It's instructive to remember that the first woodworking processes to be mechanized were the simpler, more laborious ones -- ripping, jointing, and thickness planing. Machines for these processes came well before the automatic end-tenoners, dovetailing machines, etc. I think at least one Shaker community had a belt-driven jointer/planer. None had end tenoners or dovetailing machines -- the easier the hand process, the easier to mechanize.

    Maybe an analogy helps: building the foundation of a house is crucial, it's hard physical work even today and it needs to be done accurately. That said, nobody would confuse it with building stairs and intricate handrailing. People aren't going to remark on the wonders of a foundation that supports a house, remains, level, etc. It's EXPECTED. They will remark on how well the interiors are appointed and fitted out. If you build furniture it is EXPECTED that you have the sense and the basic skills to select and accurately prepare raw stock. What you do with it after that is the part people will notice. By all means be proud of acquiring the skill to get raw stock out for a project. But don't pat yourself on the back too long - to 99.9% of the world it's still a pile of lumber until you do something with it. Slightly prettier than it was before, but still basically a pile of lumber. You've built the foundation. Wonderful. Now where the hell is the house?

    Analogies are rarely if ever perfect. I'm not denigrating foundation specialists.

    With regard to staffing and the order of work in an 18th century shop I ask this somewhat rhetorical question of the OP or anybody else who is having trouble four-squaring stock: I'm retired, closer to 80 than I am 70. That said, I'm fully capable of getting out stock by hand. Here's what I propose: I'll come by your shop and get out every single stick you need to build a reproduction John Goddard secretary, like the one that sold for $12MM and mentioned in the LA Times article below. Every stick. Accurately. You buy the lumber. I'll help pick it out if you need help with that. Then every day I'm going to come to your shop, drink tea, and watch you build it. You see, I've done the skilled part. The rest an apprentice can do. Make sense? Deal? When you're done, and if I'm still alive when you've finished, we'll sell it for a $100K and you get 25% of the profit and me 75% -- you know, because I did the difficult part.

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...240-story.html
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 02-27-2021 at 10:03 AM. Reason: that y

  4. #19
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    Michael,

    Your query seems to have gone off the rails into a discussion of techniques, so my response to your specific question is dimensioning - by a mile. You can cut the most perfect and precise dovetails, mortises and tenons all day long, but at the end of that day it won’t matter a lick if your boards aren’t flat and square. They won’t fit together properly nor will they look good.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Rosenthal View Post
    Michael,

    Your query seems to have gone off the rails into a discussion of techniques, so my response to your specific question is dimensioning - by a mile. You can cut the most perfect and precise dovetails, mortises and tenons all day long, but at the end of that day it won’t matter a lick if your boards aren’t flat and square. They won’t fit together properly nor will they look good.
    Thanks for reading Stephen

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J Evans View Post
    Thanks for reading Stephen
    As a retired Librarian, that’s one of my specialties.

  7. #22
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    One more thing I might add, on a trip to the lumber yard, a moisture meter is your best friend.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Guest View Post
    It's instructive to remember that the first woodworking processes to be mechanized were the simpler, more laborious ones -- ripping, jointing, and thickness planing. Machines for these processes came well before the automatic end-tenoners, dovetailing machines, etc. I think at least one Shaker community had a belt-driven jointer/planer. None had end tenoners or dovetailing machines -- the easier the hand process, the easier to mechanize.

    Maybe an analogy helps: building the foundation of a house is crucial, it's hard physical work even today and it needs to be done accurately. That said, nobody would confuse it with building stairs and intricate handrailing. People aren't going to remark on the wonders of a foundation that supports a house, remains, level, etc. It's EXPECTED. They will remark on how well the interiors are appointed and fitted out. If you build furniture it is EXPECTED that you have the sense and the basic skills to select and accurately prepare raw stock. What you do with it after that is the part people will notice. By all means be proud of acquiring the skill to get raw stock out for a project. But don't pat yourself on the back too long - to 99.9% of the world it's still a pile of lumber until you do something with it. Slightly prettier than it was before, but still basically a pile of lumber. You've built the foundation. Wonderful. Now where the hell is the house?

    Analogies are rarely if ever perfect. I'm not denigrating foundation specialists.

    With regard to staffing and the order of work in an 18th century shop I ask this somewhat rhetorical question of the OP or anybody else who is having trouble four-squaring stock: I'm retired, closer to 80 than I am 70. That said, I'm fully capable of getting out stock by hand. Here's what I propose: I'll come by your shop and get out every single stick you need to build a reproduction John Goddard secretary, like the one that sold for $12MM and mentioned in the LA Times article below. Every stick. Accurately. You buy the lumber. I'll help pick it out if you need help with that. Then every day I'm going to come to your shop, drink tea, and watch you build it. You see, I've done the skilled part. The rest an apprentice can do. Make sense? Deal? When you're done, and if I'm still alive when you've finished, we'll sell it for a $100K and you get 25% of the profit and me 75% -- you know, because I did the difficult part.

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...240-story.html
    Charles I read the article.
    In some sense it almost seems like the cabinet makers were the general contractor, and then they employed sub contractors (carvers,turners,etc) to make all the bits and pieces.

  9. #24
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    I'm amazed that some of you, even process wood by hand at your ages.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J Evans View Post
    I'm amazed that some of you, even process wood by hand at your ages.
    Many of us do not have the space for the machines.

    Yesterday making a handrail with hand planes was a good workout. My gym has been closed for a year now. Until the pandemic is over there will be no hurry to go back.

    Going in the shop to get about an hour of workout today making another.

    Some folks do not like the noise of machines.

    Then there is all the dust.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #26
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    Mr. Evans, a comment like “even at your age” might start a few comments!
    I just finished a garden gate, made timber framed, bridle joints and half laps. A huge amount of the work was done by hand and I’m 76.
    Hand sawing, mortise chopping, dimension planing, grooving; since I don’t have a dust collector at the moment, it’s safer on my lungs if I work by hand.
    That being said, getting a board flat and square really makes me work. But hey, a one hour gym workout plus the workshop keeps me fit.
    Young enough to remember doing it;
    Old enough to wish I could do it again.

  12. #27
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    Aaron
    Honestly I didn't realize I had posted that. I was writing a longer reply and then thought I deleted it. To my surprise Jim replied to it and I thought ohh ___. But it was already posted so why not leave it.

    It's more a complement. It can be serious work to thickness a board. I hope when I'm 76 I can still do it, if I wish.
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 02-28-2021 at 8:53 AM.

  13. #28
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    If starting from rough lumber straight out of the sawmill, it can be a challenge.

    Most of my stash was purchased from older enthusiasts (moving South) and need only come down a 64th on both faces.

    I like applied drawer faces and broad carcass panels.

    Dimensioning by hand is necessary, but since the largest are less than 48" long - maybe 30" wide - it's not insurmountable.

    Personally, I like the pace of handwork - nobody is paying me, so why rush?

  14. #29
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    Once I posted my reply, as I was going to sleep, I thought “O, sh2t, I forgot the LOL!”
    Sorry, just hav’n fun.
    Young enough to remember doing it;
    Old enough to wish I could do it again.

  15. #30
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    The hardest thing to do in the shop is keeping tools hidden that you bought without your wife’s permission. The second hardest is finding that tape measure or pencil that you JUST HAD. The third most difficult thing to do in the shop is accurately dimensioning lumber.

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