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Thread: Business of Woodworking sub forum?

  1. #16
    I could write an entire book about this topic. You go into shops (both big and small) and see why some some are actually prospering while others seem to exist only to keep the lights on, talk with the owners, hear their stories, etc. Personally, I think such a sub-forum would be a greart addition here.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  2. #17
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    Probably 25 yrs ago I was seated on a flight from NO-Boston, next to a gentleman who for the first 1/2 hr of the flight was hammering away on his lap-top. When he put it away we began talking. Turned out he was the famous fly fisherman, Lefty Kreh. Inquiring on how he made his living he described how he had just returned from a trip to Indonesia. The Indonesia Tourist Board hired him to come to their country and fish. He then came back and wrote articles about it, which were sold to magazines, back when there were magazines. Asking how he ran the business he offered that, “There are many men who are better fishermen than I and also men who are better writers. The problem they have is that the better fishermen do not get out of the stream and the better writers don’t leave the office. I, on the other hand, do the fishing but also get the writing done. I found the balance.” It was the shortest flight I have ever been on.

  3. #18
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    Jack, that is sage advice for sure.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #19
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    When I started my business I knew that I didn’t want to deal directly with the homeowner and all the time spent determining exactly what they want. At the time printed yellow pages were still commonly used so I wrote an introductory letter to every interior designer I could find. I sent out over 300. It was a simple one page intro to my business. More than one page probably will get tossed. I followed it up with a phone call over the next couple weeks to set a meeting.
    Steve Jenkins, McKinney, TX. 469 742-9694
    Always use the word "impossible" with extreme caution

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Jenkins View Post
    When I started my business I knew that I didn’t want to deal directly with the homeowner and all the time spent determining exactly what they want. At the time printed yellow pages were still commonly used so I wrote an introductory letter to every interior designer I could find. I sent out over 300. It was a simple one page intro to my business. More than one page probably will get tossed. I followed it up with a phone call over the next couple weeks to set a meeting.
    Steve, how well did that work for you?
    Brian

    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger or more complicated...it takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - E.F. Schumacher

  6. #21
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    As one who is contemplating starting a business, I'd love there to be a business focused forum.
    Brian

    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger or more complicated...it takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - E.F. Schumacher

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Tymchak View Post
    Steve, how well did that work for you?
    It worked well. I only got a handful of in person meetings but some of them ended in commissions. I also joined ASID (American Society Of Interior Designers) as an industry partner. That gave me access to their annual meetings and workshops. Over the years the number of designers I worked for increased and I stayed busy. One advantage to working that market is repeat business from the same people. They get the clients and spend the time finding out as what they want then come to me with drawings.
    Steve Jenkins, McKinney, TX. 469 742-9694
    Always use the word "impossible" with extreme caution

  8. #23
    I think a sober discussion of the in and outs of being a professional woodworker would be a valuable addition to the Forums.

    Celebrating my 50th year as a professional, and 32nd year in my own business, means I have about seen it all. I have made every mistake one can make, and more than once. A forum for professional woodworkers would have been invaluable 30 years ago when I was stepping out into the business world. I could have arrived at the proper destination much sooner, with less pain and confusion.

    I have noticed with some of my competition that they do not draw, do not price, certainly don't list specifications, never thought about a warranty, and really have no clue on the business side. They hear of a $100,000 kitchen and they already have the new truck picked out. This makes for a sad state of affairs in our chosen industry. We all seem to enjoy cutting our own throats to get work or cutting each others throats to get ahead. We at Acorn Woodworks have found quality work and doing what one says is more important than anything.

    There will always be the "cheapest guy in town", no matter. But I would like to see my profession have some more honor and pride. Maybe even standards. An educated work force - educated not only in joinery, but also educated in tax planning or comparing leases - would be a step in the right direction.

    By all means, start the section. You won't be able to shut me up.
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 02-28-2021 at 10:10 AM.
    I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
    - Kurt Vonnegut

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Rozmiarek View Post
    In my opinion, rich people are harder to part from their money then "normal" people. They didn't get that way by spending!
    Agree!
    As someone who has what I call rich family member (more than 250k in income) They are very very tight with their money.

    In contrast my poor side of my family would give a stranger the shirt off their backs to help, It's very odd having family on both sides of it.

  10. #25
    Lots of good comments so far. Glad that some others out there could see the value in a sub-forum. My intention isn’t to make it exclusive in any way to those not in business, simply to have a consolidated gathering of business related content, much like all the other, more specialized sub-forums.

    Just off the top of my head, I can think of several valuable subjects that range from sales and marketing techniques / skills, pricing strategies, overhead and cost calculations that can be specific to a woodworking business, CAD software, photographing your work, shop efficiency, and delivering / shipping finished work safely to name a few that are beyond the scope of actual woodworking tools and techniques.
    Still waters run deep.

  11. #26
    Just thinking more about this. If there was a “top three” list of factors I see that one-man shops run into as far plateauing or stagnating, it would look like this:

    -Thinking you can do the millwork AS WELL as the bidding/client meetings/etc. What I notice is that no matter how good your work is, you’ll hit a wall at some point due to there only being so many hours in the day. Be honest with yourself: If you would rather be building cabinets than doing Quickbooks, then hire someone who will do that for you.

    -Lack of willingness to invest in newer or more modern equipment due to lack of confidence in the market or in your own abilities. I cannot tell you how many shops I know where they just can’t seem to bring themselves to invest in a sliding panel saw, a new edgebander, etc. All the usual excuses: “I can’t afford it/I don’t have the room/timing not right/etc.” Well guess what? This has transitioned from being a hobby to being your BUSINESS. It’s like having kids: If you wait for when the time is perfect to have them, then you probably never will. It’s all fine that you feel this way but please understand that there are other cabinet shops bidding on those jobs, too, who didn’t think twice about investing in new equipment and and can do it just as good as you, in half the time.

    -On that same note, this hoarder-type mentality of hanging onto older or outdated equipment that does not actually serve your business interests. I seem to run into this quite often here in Central TX. For example, there is a shop not that far from me that has a Martin slider, jointer, planer, and shaper. I walked in there and told the guy straight-up, “I thought I might be able to sell you something but never mind!”. However, what this guy does is a machine these speciality plastic pieces on an ancient CNC router that is barely operational. Apparently, he hasn’t done any actual millwork in years. I asked why he hadn’t sold all those Martins and then bought a newer/better router with that money. He couldn’t come up with a good answer. So, you aren’t actually running a business. What you are is a hobbyist with a private museum. But he was unable to be honest with himself about that fact and so, will probably continue to barely get by.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Loza View Post
    Just thinking more about this. If there was a “top three” list of factors I see that one-man shops run into as far plateauing or stagnating, it would look like this:

    -Thinking you can do the millwork AS WELL as the bidding/client meetings/etc. What I notice is that no matter how good your work is, you’ll hit a wall at some point due to there only being so many hours in the day. Be honest with yourself: If you would rather be building cabinets than doing Quickbooks, then hire someone who will do that for you.

    -Lack of willingness to invest in newer or more modern equipment due to lack of confidence in the market or in your own abilities. I cannot tell you how many shops I know where they just can’t seem to bring themselves to invest in a sliding panel saw, a new edgebander, etc. All the usual excuses: “I can’t afford it/I don’t have the room/timing not right/etc.” Well guess what? This has transitioned from being a hobby to being your BUSINESS. It’s like having kids: If you wait for when the time is perfect to have them, then you probably never will. It’s all fine that you feel this way but please understand that there are other cabinet shops bidding on those jobs, too, who didn’t think twice about investing in new equipment and and can do it just as good as you, in half the time.

    -On that same note, this hoarder-type mentality of hanging onto older or outdated equipment that does not actually serve your business interests. I seem to run into this quite often here in Central TX. For example, there is a shop not that far from me that has a Martin slider, jointer, planer, and shaper. I walked in there and told the guy straight-up, “I thought I might be able to sell you something but never mind!”. However, what this guy does is a machine these speciality plastic pieces on an ancient CNC router that is barely operational. Apparently, he hasn’t done any actual millwork in years. I asked why he hadn’t sold all those Martins and then bought a newer/better router with that money. He couldn’t come up with a good answer. So, you aren’t actually running a business. What you are is a hobbyist with a private museum. But he was unable to be honest with himself about that fact and so, will probably continue to barely get by.

    Erik
    Wow, good summary Erik. I'm so guilty of that first one myself. Finally fixed it, but it took a year to convince myself that it was a problem big enough to need dealt with right now.

  13. #28
    I don't think 250K annual qualifies as rich. But I agree, people in that niche do not spend easily. They usually are very good at making others think they are rich. I learned long ago to only give them so much time, because they never buy.

    Several years ago, I was proposing a pricy bit of millwork for a new house, and the owner was stalling. His wife came over glanced at the drawings (for his paneled home office), casually asked how much. I replied about $40,000 (1994 dollars). She said - Just go ahead, what is that? A good morning in the market, and you've had several of them lately. He agreed, got behind it, and it came out nicely.

    Then there are the truly rich - old money, in the billions if you add up all the trust funds, etc. They have no concept of what money buys other than more investments. They are the easiest sell there is.

    I have had sneaker, sweat pants, t-shirt clad buyers spend 4 times what the designer clad did.
    I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
    - Kurt Vonnegut

  14. #29
    One house I worked on was for a vp at Goldman Sachs. There was a cylindrical tower in the center that was essentially a skylight well as originally designed. Someone suggested putting in a circular stair and a small office in the top of the tower, but the client was reluctant due to the added cost. His wife got her way, reportedly saying, "Oh Bill, it's just a one time expense!"

  15. #30
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    Cool story about Lefty. I used to fly fish a ton and read many of his articles.

    I like the concept. I especially love reading about people's opinions on tools. For example, i am in the transitional zone between high end hobbyist tools and industry standard stuff. Its hard for me to get honest feedback on these machines, because like you said, the professional forums arent that active. Less applicable to me, but i still find it interesting to follow people's advice on when its appropriate to upgrade to a 4 sided moulder, or a SLR, or whatever other tool.

    I dipped my toe in my 20s. Made a fair amount of coin to buy all my tools and pay off student loans. It's also nice to have a skillset in your back pocket to make extra money when you need it. I never earnestly wanted to pursue it full time as a career; however, maybe one day ill pick it back up.

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