wet sharpening system

[Stephen White]

I had ordered a WEN wet sander with a turning jig for $125 yesterday evening and at 3 this morning canceled it after reading a recent sharpening thread.

I got there by seeing the Tormek at Rockler. At $430 I was grumbling and while researching came across the Rikon, Grizzly and WEN with same style. The design is almost identical. I have a few WEN perimeter tools that work just fine and decided to just go for it with the WEN.

It bothered me though that I could only find any mention of using these for turning tools by the manufacturers themselves. I saw the thread and then searched for others and no one seems to use any of them.

I read some good things about using these wet sharpening systems such as not heating up the tips too much and placing a magnet to grab shavings. Could someone give me some input on the negatives of wet (other than water might spill on bench). They all have a jig and claim they are good for turning tools.

I am brand new at turning and sharpening and went with the Sorby starter set and while its not overly expensive it is $40 a tool so don't really want to trash them and it was mentioned that it might be smart to grab a cheap $25 turning set from HF to practice sharpening before moving on to the more expensive ones. I don't sharpening experience but I don't have any other that a little freehand here and there.

I have the Tormek 50 and 186 jigs and turning tool setter tts 100 along with the Rikon (same manu as my lathe and supposed to be fully compatible). Not sure the WEN is so switched. The final cost with everything is around $450 and that seems in the ball park of other options.

[David Walser]

Stephen -- I've been using my Tormek for sharpening turning tools for over 15 years. I like the larger, 10" diameter wheel. The 10" diameter produces a shallower hollow grind, which I like. I also like the width of the wheel. It makes it easier to sharpen without the tool falling off the edge of the wheel. After sharpening on the Tormek's 1,000 grit wheel and honing on the leather wheel, my tools are noticeably sharper than when sharpened on my bench grinder's 120 grit wheel. You'll hear from a lot of turners who claim that a tool sharpened at 60 - 120 grit has a more durable edge than one sharpened at 1,000 grit. That used to be the faith promoting rumor that was widely shared within the turning community. It also defies common sense and my personal experience. My Tormek sharpened tools cut better and remain sharper than the same tool sharpened on a 120 grit dry grinder.

While I really like the size and fine finish produced by the Tormek, what makes it special is Tormek's jigs. They are simply better than anything else I've seen on the market. They are easy to set up, produce consistent results, and allow a lot of flexibility in the tool profiles that can be produced. In addition, using water to lubricate the wheel eliminates dust and prevents the tool from heating up. You can touch the edge of the tool right off the wheel, which I do to feel if I've raised a bur along the entire width of the tool. If I have, the tool is sharp and just requires a honing to remove the bur. Please, don't try this when sharpening on a dry grinder!

The downside to using a Tormek is it is SLOW. If all you're doing is touching up an edge, it only takes a few seconds. However, if you're reshaping a tool -- changing the bevel angle or profile -- it takes a very, very, long time to do it with a Tormek in its natural wet sharpener form. To address this problem, I bought a 1/2hp slow-speed grinder and upgraded the wheels to A/O. I also used Tormek's dry grinder base to allow me to use Tormek's jigs with the bench grinder. This allowed me to shape the tools on the dry grinder and then, without removing the tool from the jig, sharpen it on my Tormek. Shaping a skew went from 45+minutes on the Tormek to less than 5 minutes with the bench grinder/Tormek combo.

That was my set up and what I considered state of the art until quite recently. I now have CBN wheels on the bench grinder AND on the Tormek. If I had it to do over again, I probably would just get the Tormek with two CBN wheels to go with it. The 600 grit wheel on the Tormek can shape a skew in less than 15 minutes. Not as fast as I'd like, but not bad. It only takes a couple of minutes to swap wheels. So, if I had a 200 grit wheel to go with a 600 grit wheel, I could handle everything with just the one sharpener. As it is, I use my bench grinder for shaping and my Tormek for sharpening.

[Stephen White]

If I had it to do over again, I probably would just get the Tormek with two CBN wheels to go with it. The 600 grit wheel on the Tormek can shape a skew in less than 15 minutes. Not as fast as I'd like, but not bad. It only takes a couple of minutes to swap wheels. So, if I had a 200 grit wheel to go with a 600 grit wheel, I could handle everything with just the one sharpener. As it is, I use my bench grinder for shaping and my Tormek for sharpening.

So if the bench grinder bites the dust would you just get a 2nd wheel for the Tormek?

How many minutes/hours of turning would you be able to put on a skew before having to spend 45 minutes on it if you only had the Tormek?

[John K Jordan]

I have two Tormeks. The wet system does take longer to setup before you can sharpen. A dry wheel starts to soak up the water in the tray right away and has to be replenished until the wheel is saturated. Also, the wheels need to be dressed regularly and like the conventional wheels on bench grinders need to be replaced when they wear down far enough - and a new wheel is not cheap. The grind on the tools is great, though.

With the wet grinder you also need the diamond dresser to keep the wheel face in good condition as it wears.

After using the conventional wheels for years I've gone to 10" CBN wheels, 1200grit on one. The grind I get is not quite as good as I got with the conventional wheel but is always ready to go. I use the leather stropping wheels on nearly every tools, even if I sharpen it on another grinder.

One potential "problem" with a CBN wheel on the Tormek: when you use it from the front, where the wheel rotates away from you, the steel dust removed can stick to the tool obscuring the edge and annoying me. This happens because the lathe tools become magnetized with use (a topic for discussion some other time). I keep an old bulk tape eraser hanging on the wall to demagnetize the tool when that happens.

In my reading on various forums, I find that some who bought Tormek wet grinder clones (there are several, Jet, etc.) had problems with the shaft rusting. Perhaps the clones were built with different materials.

BTW, I have the turning tool setter but never use it. It's easy enough to set the jigs/rest to the exact angle without it. I now make plastic gauges for the angles I use the most which makes settup very fast.

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JKJ

[John K Jordan]

So if the bench grinder bites the dust would you just get a 2nd wheel for the Tormek?

How many minutes/hours of turning would you be able to put on a skew before having to spend 45 minutes on it if you only had the Tormek?

Just to be clear, you don't have to spend that amount of time sharpening the skew, just when reshaping it which is done rarely. Sharpening a skew is just a few minutes. Sharpening a spindle gouge takes just a few seconds once the jig is set up.

I also do any shaping on bench grinders with the Tormek jigs or flat platform. I would hate to be without the bench grinder next to the Tormek. If one of mine died I'd get another if it couldn't be fixed.

JKJ

[Stephen White]

With the wet grinder you also need the diamond dresser to keep the wheel face in good condition as it wears.


JKJ

Ok added the diamond dresser and dropped the tool setter. If that seems to trip me up I can always get one later.

Question though do you think with no experience I should grab a cheap turning set to practice with before I put my $40 tools on there? I am solo and no club or mentor to work through this with, just going to watch some video's and go for it. I decided on the Sorby set for now and then will cherry pick the tools I want as I go with an eye to the Thompsons you like. Still I would like these to last me as well.

[David Walser]

I agree with most of what John said. Well, actually, I agree with everything he said. Shaping or reshaping a skew or spindle gouge only happens rarely -- when you first buy the tool and, maybe never again for that particular tool.

I'm sure John would replace his bench grinder if it died. I most likely wouldn't. I am more space constrained than John. While I find my bench grinder useful, it takes up space that I might prefer to use for another tool if the bench grinder were not needed. (I still have my 6" high-speed grinder for other uses, if need be.) My point is, with a 200 grit wheel for my Tormek, shaping a tool could be done fairly quickly -- not as quickly as with my bench grinder's 180 grit wheel, but quick enough to be more than just tolerable. With a 200 grit wheel for the Tormek (and a 600 grit or 800 grit wheel), I would not need the bench grinder for my turning tools. I'd still use it for other things, but not turning tools. As it is, for turning tools, over 90% of the time at the 'grinder' is spent with the Tormek.

[John K Jordan]

...
Question though do you think with no experience I should grab a cheap turning set to practice with before I put my $40 tools on there? I am solo and no club or mentor...

Hard to answer that. Some people grind away a lot of their first tools learning and others pick it up quickly.

You might also find cheap or free lathe tools, especially if you can find a local club to join - lots of people have old tools they will part with. I keep a box full of old tools that were free or cheap and I'm always alert for more. I let people practice on them, loan or give them to students, and grind some into special purpose tools. Note that some cheap and some old tools have really bad steel compared to today's HHS steel - some in my box are not even hardened; some are hardened for only about 1" from the tip. Some are carbon steel and the hardness on the edge is ruined you let them get too hot at the grinder. But even those with poor steel are fine to learn sharpening.

Did you look in your area for a club? Many are meeting virtually now - our club had some people join recently that don't even live close. What is your area? (The AAW web site has a listing of all chapter clubs across the nation. )

If you have a store like WoodCraft or other that caters to woodturners, they may have resources to teach sharpening. Some have classes; some might put you in touch with a local person who will help or at least to start asking around. Joining the AAW is also quite useful. They have lots of resources for beginners.

JKJ

[David Walser]

Stephen -- This time I am going to disagree with John. For a woodturner, I would recommend these jigs: Turning Tool Setter TTS-100, SVD-186 R Gouge Jig, SVS-50 Multi Jig, and the SVD-110 Tool Rest. The tool setter is important because it allows you to use the 'formulas' Tormek prescribes to create different tool profiles. You use it to set the distance of the Universal Support from the wheel (which controls bevel angle), you also use it to set the protrusion of the tool out of the jig. It is very useful for using the Gouge Jig and the Multi Jig. It's not used with the Tool Rest. While you can use self-made jigs to replace the tool setter, you need to know how to create these jigs. You would also, most likely, need several of them. I find the turning tool setter to be an elegant solution.

Perhaps John was referring to the WM-200 AngleMaster. If so, he and I agree. The AngleMaster is finicky to set up and use. I find it easier to find the bevel I want by eye than to use the AngleMaster. The Anglemaster would be used with the Tool Rest, which I use for sharpening scrapers. I find it much quicker to simply match the Tool Rest to the bevel angle already existing on my scraper. I use a sharpie to blacken the bevel and can quickly dial in the bevel angle to match. Since most of my scrapers have the same bevel angle, I can sharpen several of them before having to change the set up.

[David Walser]

...

Question though do you think with no experience I should grab a cheap turning set to practice with before I put my $40 tools on there? ...

I used to offer this advice. If you're reluctant to sharpen because you might grind away expensive steel, you're less likely to sharpen as often as you should. However, with good quality jigs (and the Tormek jigs are the best), you're not going to waste away much steel. You could sharpen a tool 100 times and not take off 1/4" in length. If you were using a high-speed grinder and trying to sharpen freehand, I'd say go for the cheap chinaseum tools. Since, you will be using a good jig, you're safe to learn how to sharpen with the nice set of tools you've purchased.

The problems with cheap tools are two fold: First, they will require a lot of hand work to be serviceable. For example, the skews and scrapers will come with sharp corners along the length of the tools. These corners need to be relieved so that they slide smoothly on the tool rest. Otherwise, you'll nick the tool rest and the tools will not slide as they should. You'll need to relieve the corners with a file and/or a belt sander. There are similar items you'll need to address with the tools so they'll work properly for you. As someone new to turning, how will you know which issues you need to correct before the tools will work well?

Second, in a typical set of cheap tools, one, if not several, of the tools will be poorly tempered. This will prevent the tool from holding an edge. As someone just learning to sharpen, how will you know if its your inability to sharpen or the tool's inability to hold an edge?

Both of these problems worked against me when I was a newbie. I spent two years fairly frustrated with my inability to sharpen and my inability to consistently get a good cut. Why couldn't I roll the skew smoothly on its edge to cut a bead? Or, why was I getting a good cut and suddenly, the surface looked torn rather than planed smooth? I'm NOT saying I didn't have things to learn. I did. I just wasn't aware I need to learn which problems were caused by me and which were caused by my tools.

[tom lucas]

One other issue with any of the wet grinders: You cannot let water freeze in the stone. It'll crack. I now use RV antifreeze instead when using the wet grinder in the winter (my shop is only heated while I'm in it). I owned a Grizzly knock off of the Tormek. It worked just as good. I picked up a used Tormek with leather honing wheel for cheap and then sold the Grizz. But there was nothing wrong with it. It worked just fine. I like the slow wet grinders for some of my other chisels and I do use the honing wheels a lot. But if I only had one grinder it would be a 1700 rpm grinder with CBN wheels and a one-way jig/rest system. It's just so much faster (and I don't have to mess with the antifreeze/water thing). The Tormek jigs are quite nice, even if they are pricey. Maybe I should convert my Tormek to CBN? Anything special to know if I do that, John?

[Stephen White]

Alright finally near the end of the tunnel. Have all three Tormek sharpening jigs (186, 110, 50) as well as tool setter gauge and the truing tool. Along with the Rikon wet sander I am at $625 with tax and that gets me in business with HSS. I was tempted to opt for the $44 Rikon version of the 186 jig but read some nice reviews of that Tormek jig.

Tom, good to hear of your luck with Grizzly. I may just save another $60 and go that route before I pull the trigger. The Rikon is $210 and the same brand as my new lathe so I opted for it.

John I will definitely be on the look out for club/classes in my area.

Dave I hear ya on the cheap tools. I already bought the Sorby 6 tool starter. It's not expensive set but was $40 a tool and I think considered by most to be an OK first set. I think I will grab a white handle set of HF ones to use for the first few days/weeks while I get grounded and work with the sharpening system and turn my first hello world projects.

It basically cost me about $850 to go the HSS route with sharpening and decent tool set. I can see why folks try to latch onto carbides and see if they can make that work as a replacement so they don't have to get all of this stuff but I am happy that I can now be in control of my tooling going forward. Will get a good set of carbides though after I absorb all the dough I've spent this week,

Now just have to practice, practice, practice.

edit: wrong about grizzly, is $50 more so sticking with the Rikon.

[John K Jordan]

...
Perhaps John was referring to the WM-200 AngleMaster. ...

No. I got that one also but after trying it once never used it. I found I didn't need it.

I use the Tormek with 1200 grit primarily with my spindle gouges (I sharpen bowl gouges on a 600 grit CBN on a bench grinder with the Tormek jig or freehand).

When I first got the Tormek I studied the charts in the manual then experimented with various profiles on bowl and spindle gouges until I found what I liked best. I've mentioned this before: I keep several 3/8" spindle gouges all with exactly the same grind. When one starts to get dull I set it aside and put the next one in the handle. When all are dull I set up the jig on the Tormek to match one - after that it takes just a few minutes to sharpen all six.

I find it quick and simple to make gauges to set platform angles for most tools: two for skews, two for NRS, one for hand scrapers, etc. Set the platform angle, trace the curve of the wheel onto a piece of plexiglass, cut it out close on the bandsaw, then fit it to the grinding wheel with the grinder running. (After using the clear plastic for a long time I finally got smarter and painted one side white to make them easier to read.)

Sounds like we use the same method to duplicate angles on a existing grinds, for me, a variety of tools for which I haven't made a gauge. Except I use a blue sharpie. I call it the set and scratch method - very quick.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

... Maybe I should convert my Tormek to CBN? Anything special to know if I do that, John?

No, just decide the grit and order! Maybe verify the shaft diameter. I called up Ken Rizza and ordered a 600 grit aluminum wheel made for the Tormek. Installed it and put the water tray away. Then later decided I wanted a finer grit so I ordered the 1200. I sometimes dribble some honing fluid (made for diamond hones) on the wheel but not often. Besides occasionally demagnetizing the tools as I mentioned it's exactly like using the stone wheel except it never needs dressed and never gets smaller.

I did not use Rizza's spherical washers that always I use on the bench grinders. (I'm not even sure the set would fit and still leave enough threads for the nut.) However, I did use a precision ground washer on both sides of the wheel. I get no detectable runnout.

JKJ

[Stephen White]

but John since I don't know any of that the tool setter tool is probably not a bad thing for me to use until I do, right?

The routine you use is where I see myself going as well. I loved the look of the Thompson tools but just don't have the dough to buy the list you put together for me all at once. I opted for the Sorby set and figure as I get serious about a project will then get a couple really good missing type or size and over time build my arsenal and have several of each. Stopping and sharpening a single tool in the middle of a project sounds unproductive but having two, three or more of each tool can get really expensive so will have to get there over time by project.

Once I get to a starting place (hopefully only a few months if I can put in a few hours a day) my first project is wine glass stems. I have 6 dozen red/white blown wine glass tops and 6 dozen champagne glass tops from when we were throwing wine stems on the pottery wheel. Our supplier bailed and these new ones needed to be worked out for our pottery stems as they were blown for wood and have an inch or two stem. We got busy and shelved the glass tops for later.

That will be about 150 stems and that should give me some reps. Since they are for product they need to be professional quality and that keeps the bar high and makes it where I can't compromise. No deadline and doesn't matter how many crappy ones I have to toss to get it right. Seems like a good project to get grounded with and learn how to make it happen.